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 Post subject: Russian Fighters V6.2
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:27 pm 
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Grigorovich I-2 28.81
Polikarpov I-3 38.49
Tupolev I-4 37.46
Polikarpov I-5 38.45
Polikarpov I-15 46.57
Polikarpov I-15M 59.52
Polikarpov I-15MR 59.28
Polikarpov I-15bis 53.95
Polikarpov I-153 60.58
Polikarpov I-16 Type 4 54.73
Polikarpov I-16 Type 10 58.14
Polikarpov I-16 Type 12 63.19
Polikarpov I-16 Type 17 69.98
Polikarpov I-16 Type 18 84.14
Polikarpov I-16 Type 24 86.77
Polikarpov I-17 75.68
MiG-1 83.75
MiG-3 88.28
LaAG-3 82.56
La-5 91.01
La-5FN 96.43
La-7 102.94
La-9 126.97
La-11 121.31
YaK-1 78.11
YaK-1M 87.06
YaK-7 80.83
YaK-9B 94.68
YaK-9D 98.11
YaK-9T 111.58
YaK-9U 100.96
YaK-3 98.68
YaK-3P 102.98
YaK-15 121.01
YaK-17 126.52
MiG-9 172.97
YaK-23 204.07
MiG-15 215.61
MiG-15bis 250.73
La-15 190.72
MiG-17 250.66
MiG-17F 275.37
MiG-17PF 265.87
MiG-17PFU 211.08
MiG-17FM 279.74
Yak-25 253.82
MiG-19 367.31
MiG-19S 434.42
MiG-19P 400.71
MiG-19PM 392.93
MiG-19SM 442.55
MiG-21F 538.97
MiG-21F13 503.80
MiG-21PF 462.67
MiG-21PFM 528.54
MiG-21S 530.96
MiG-21SM 613.56
Su-7 498.82
Su-17M 516.21
Su-17M4 533.15
Su-9 427.24
Su-11 478.52
Su-15 562.94
Tu-128 387.61
Yak-28P 365.40
MiG-23M 655.47
MiG-23MS 601.89
MiG-23P 690.84
MiG-23MLD 709.95
MiG-25P 618.69
MiG-29B 779.65
MiG-29S 792.76
MiG-31B 1030.36
MiG-31BM 1286.11
Su-27P 950.37
Su-30MK 1161.12

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:24 pm 
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Just out of curiosity, and bearing in mind the usual caveats about incomplete data, what does the S-37/"Su-37"/Su-47/whatever-name-Sukhoi's marketeers-have-attached-to-it-this-week score?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:25 am 
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The Bushranger wrote:
Just out of curiosity, and bearing in mind the usual caveats about incomplete data, what does the S-37/"Su-37"/Su-47/whatever-name-Sukhoi's marketeers-have-attached-to-it-this-week score?


This is a classic case of we really don't have the information to tell. There's data out there but its highly questionable. At the moment, I'd say the Su-47 is pretty close to being a napkinwaffe; there's an aerodynamic test bed around but that's all and if a combat version has done test flights, the Russians are playing it close to the chest.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:38 am 
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MiG-21PF 462.67
Mirage IIIC: 511.xx

This was surprising.... 10% difference in numbers performance. Anyone care to guess at the difference in pilot performance between Israel & Egypt?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:18 pm 
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A slight improvement in the data with improved subdivision of types for the I-16. This is another case of a major improvement over the years.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:36 pm 
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Craiglxviii wrote:
MiG-21PF 462.67
Mirage IIIC: 511.xx

This was surprising.... 10% difference in numbers performance. Anyone care to guess at the difference in pilot performance between Israel & Egypt?


I believe Stuart mentioned in the past that the Mirage was built for export and the French Government told their air force "here, have this".

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:44 am 
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Winston Smith wrote:
Craiglxviii wrote:
MiG-21PF 462.67
Mirage IIIC: 511.xx

This was surprising.... 10% difference in numbers performance. Anyone care to guess at the difference in pilot performance between Israel & Egypt?


I believe Stuart mentioned in the past that the Mirage was built for export and the French Government told their air force "here, have this".


What surprised me was that the Mirage IIIC outperformed the Mig-21 in a hard, calculated number as well as historically. My understanding had always been that it was the skill of the Israeli pilots that made the difference, well now we can see that they had superior machines to start with as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:38 am 
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Craiglxviii wrote:
What surprised me was that the Mirage IIIC outperformed the Mig-21 in a hard, calculated number as well as historically. My understanding had always been that it was the skill of the Israeli pilots that made the difference, well now we can see that they had superior machines to start with as well.

I think the big difference is that the Mirage IIIC had a pair of cannon (pretty much French-built Aden guns) as well as two so-so IR missiles and a single radar homer (that the Israelies never carried). Very early MiG-21s had two guns, no missiles, most early MiG-21s had two so-so IR missiles but no guns. Now I have read that the Israelis cooperated with the French Air Force in developing the Mirage III and that including guns was something they insisted on.

The version of the MiG-21 flown in the Six Day War was the worst of the MiG-21 variants. It had lost its guns for missiles and been loaded with additional avionics but retained the original engine. So, it was overloaded and sluggish. The Vietnamese mostly operated older versions that were, ironically enough, better suited to their environment.

I think also that another factor here was that the MiG-21s were operating out of their designed environment; they were conceived as interceptors operating under close ground control and doing hit-and-run attacks. I suspect if we look at the Israeli strikes in the Six-Day, buried in them are attacks that took out those ground control stations.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:10 am 
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And that is down to the deep rooted skill of hard core staff work by the IAF, Stuart, as you've always espoused :D :D :D

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:24 am 
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Craiglxviii wrote:
And that is down to the deep rooted skill of hard core staff work by the IAF, Stuart, as you've always espoused :D :D :D

The IAF are pretty damned good. The Israeli Army are OK, its the Navy that is the slough of despond.

Operational planning is usually good to very good. Its administration that is gruesome. Which, incidentally, applies to Israel as a whole.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:46 pm 
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Francis Urquhart wrote:
and a single radar homer (that the Israelis never carried).

From what I remember being said about the R.530, that was a very good decision on their part!

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I'm sorry, but I prefer to carpet-shark my enemies. Much more mayhem, though it must be admitted that the laser-guided shark is cheaper.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:07 pm 
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Francis Urquhart wrote:
Craiglxviii wrote:
What surprised me was that the Mirage IIIC outperformed the Mig-21 in a hard, calculated number as well as historically. My understanding had always been that it was the skill of the Israeli pilots that made the difference, well now we can see that they had superior machines to start with as well.

I think the big difference is that the Mirage IIIC had a pair of cannon (pretty much French-built Aden guns) as well as two so-so IR missiles and a single radar homer (that the Israelies never carried). Very early MiG-21s had two guns, no missiles, most early MiG-21s had two so-so IR missiles but no guns. Now I have read that the Israelis cooperated with the French Air Force in developing the Mirage III and that including guns was something they insisted on.

The version of the MiG-21 flown in the Six Day War was the worst of the MiG-21 variants. It had lost its guns for missiles and been loaded with additional avionics but retained the original engine. So, it was overloaded and sluggish. The Vietnamese mostly operated older versions that were, ironically enough, better suited to their environment.

I think also that another factor here was that the MiG-21s were operating out of their designed environment; they were conceived as interceptors operating under close ground control and doing hit-and-run attacks. I suspect if we look at the Israeli strikes in the Six-Day, buried in them are attacks that took out those ground control stations.


One thing that most commercial wargames (manual or computer) simply do not get is that there's a whole command-and-control backplane that makes modern air combat possible, and the resources that go into that backplane are, IMNHO, almost always insufficient if you're assuming someone's going to be attacking it. Even a minor disruption of that backplane is going to have YUUUGGE adverse effects; actually killing enough nodes (i.e., primary data path plus backup facilitiess for a given site) is going to throw major chunks of the IADS into local control, with detection only possible within the local radar horizon.

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