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 Post subject: Fighters Other, V6.2
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:37 pm 
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Australia
CA-12 Boomerang 95.10
CA-15 Kangaroo 121.33
CA-27 Avon-Sabre 279.74
Austria-Hungary
Aviatik D1 33.79
H-B D.1 30.69
Phonix D1 31.59
Phonix D.III 33.28
Canada
Canadair Sabre 245.88
CF-100 Mk.3 243.81
CF-100 Mk.4 221.79
CF-105 475.28
Czechoslovakia
AE-18 34.35
Avia BH-3 25.34
Letov S.20 30.87
Avia BH-21 32.57
Avia BH-33 46.20
Letov S.231 41.71
Avia B-534 54.11
Netherlands
Fokker D.XI 26.49
Fokker D.XIII 36.59
Fokker D.XVI 40.33
Fokker D.XVII 47.96
Fokker D.XXI 59.23
Koolhoven FK.58 57.00
Fokker G.1 63.04
Poland
PWS-10 27.86
PZL P-7 39.81
PZL P-11 46.95
PZL P-24 66.43
Romania
IAR-80 70.97
Sweden
FFVS J-22 87.31
Saab J-21 102.56
Saab J-21R 135.60
Saab J-29A 205.95
Saab J-29A 206.15
Saab J-32B 450.53
Saab J-35A 577.78
Saab J-35D 610.72
Saab J-35J 587.72
Saab JA-37 718.46
Saab JA-37D 864.29
Saab JAS-39A Gripen 937.28
Saab JAS-39C Gripen 1056.46
Yugoslavia
IK-2 59.87
IK-3 63.64
S-49 93.60
KAI FA-50 783.44

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 Post subject: Re: Fighters Other, V6.1
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:29 pm 
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Which version of the JAS-39 is listed here?

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 Post subject: Re: Fighters Other, V6.1
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:44 pm 
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Commandant Ours Polaire wrote:
Which version of the JAS-39 is listed here?

It's the JAS-39A. I'll add the later versions shortly.

The new table system is incredible, a whole world and a half better than anything we've had before. Well done!

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 Post subject: Re: Fighters Other, V6.1
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:59 pm 
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Francis Urquhart wrote:
Commandant Ours Polaire wrote:
Which version of the JAS-39 is listed here?

It's the JAS-39A. I'll add the later versions shortly.


Wow. She was/is quite a bargain then.

Francis Urquhart wrote:
The new table system is incredible, a whole world and a half better than anything we've had before. Well done!


Thanks. It really does make everything easier to read.

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 Post subject: Re: Fighters Other, V6.1
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:40 am 
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I noticed that the Gripen contemporaries Typhoon and Rafale were previously ranked notably higher but in this version rank a bit below the Gripen. What change in the model would have caused this?

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 Post subject: Re: Fighters Other, V6.1
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:01 am 
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Micael wrote:
I noticed that the Gripen contemporaries Typhoon and Rafale were previously ranked notably higher but in this version rank a bit below the Gripen. What change in the model would have caused this?


When we standardize on 6.2 (that has a more detailed handling of EW and radar equipment) we'll probably go back to the previous. Having said that Gripen is an excellent lightweight fighter. I know the USAF and Navy have both looked at it as a possible candidate for an aggressor aircraft. One of the things that play for it is that Typhoon and Rafale have both paid some attention to reducing RCS (Rafale a lot more so than Typhoon) and that brought penalties with it. Gripen by and large didn't and is all the more attractive as a result.

Once cynical oldster commented that Rafale and Typhoon had just enough stealth to compromise performance without increasing survivability.

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 Post subject: Re: Fighters Other, V6.1
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:09 pm 
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Yeah, someone said that the interest got going after the Red Flag appearances where it supposedly performed well. Not sure if its true or not but anyway.

Someone else also noted that the small size means that the RCS is pretty low without having to do too much compromising as you said.

A follow up question if I may: When you ask a Gripen pilot what aspect of feature of it compares the most favorably with the competition the usual answer you get seems to be its Human-Machine Interface and Decision Support System which they feel has got the upper hand over the rest as they see it. (One guy joked that that's the one field it can beat the F-22 in.)
Related to this pretty much everyone seems to think that the Russian birds has in contrast got horrible ones.
So the question being then, is this something possible to quantify and use in this assessment as it would appear to have a certain level of effect on the overall performance? Or is this something too "fuzzy" that can't be easily measured?

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 Post subject: Re: Fighters Other, V6.1
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:15 pm 
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Micael wrote:
Yeah, someone said that the interest got going after the Red Flag appearances where it supposedly performed well. Not sure if its true or not but anyway.


It's true and the interest is still there. A t this point, it's unfunded and there's no room in the budget. If some way could be found of funding procurement that didn't involve money . . . .

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Someone else also noted that the small size means that the RCS is pretty low without having to do too much compromising as you said.


That's not. RCS doesn't really work that way.

Quote:
A follow up question if I may: When you ask a Gripen pilot what aspect of feature of it compares the most favorably with the competition the usual answer you get seems to be its Human-Machine Interface and Decision Support System which they feel has got the upper hand over the rest as they see it. (One guy joked that that's the one field it can beat the F-22 in.) Related to this pretty much everyone seems to think that the Russian birds has in contrast got horrible ones. So the question being then, is this something possible to quantify and use in this assessment as it would appear to have a certain level of effect on the overall performance? Or is this something too "fuzzy" that can't be easily measured?


What I see this model as doing is eliminating all the non-fuzzy aspects from the equation. It works on solid, well-defined and accessible numbers that are calculated the same way. Thus, the ratings for each aircraft and between various aircraft are calculated on an "all other factors being equal" basis. Thus, if our ratings point at two aircraft being roughly equal and there is an action account where one side totally dominated the other, we have something that points us at what happened; that there were other factors involved that made a critical difference. The question then becomes what factor was different in that particular engagement. A classic example is the P-39; the USAAF regarded it as being (at its very best) mediocre while the Russians fell in instant love with it and it was the "mount of aces" for their pilots. Now, our ratings tend to agree with the Russian viewpoint and the P-39 comes out rather well. The secret here is that the P-39 was designed to be a low altitude aircraft giving its best performance below 15,000 feet. That's exactly how the Russians used it and the Russians played to the aircraft's strengths. The US was using it at higher altitudes, usually around 20,000 feet, and it was decidedly out of breath up there.

Things like ease of maintenance, MMI etc can't be calculated but they can, using our data identified as important factors under specific circumstances. Also, when the combat data is in line with our number values, that suggests that under those circumstances, the fuzzy factors weren't significant.

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 Post subject: Re: Fighters Other, V6.2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:30 pm 
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You know to score the US as a customer would likely be worth quite a bit to Saab and Sweden in itself so I think any potential purchase would get a very reasonable price.

Well not on its own of course, but I think what's implied is that otherwise identical aircraft but for size would mean that the larger should have a larger RCS. Maybe. ;)
Gripen's been tested against a Su-30 radar for instance and rumor has it that the result was not overly horrible anyway so some effort seems to have been put into this.

Okay, so I guess that's a no then, unfuzziness is the way to go. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Fighters Other, V6.2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:40 pm 
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While there are several aircraft I would like to see included, I do wonder where the A-50 airframe comes in at (in various forms), or is that seen as a strike platform?)

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 Post subject: Re: Fighters Other, V6.2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:53 pm 
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Micael wrote:
You know to score the US as a customer would likely be worth quite a bit to Saab and Sweden in itself so I think any potential purchase would get a very reasonable price.


A point that has been made, not least by your present interlocutor who is quite a fan of the JAS-39

Quote:
Well not on its own of course, but I think what's implied is that otherwise identical aircraft but for size would mean that the larger should have a larger RCS. Maybe.Gripen's been tested against a Su-30 radar for instance and rumor has it that the result was not overly horrible anyway so some effort seems to have been put into this.


Shaping is much more important than physical size. So are materials and a few other things. The probability is that the Saab engineers decided the point at which they wanted to stop reducing RCS and got it right. They balanced off the various requirements very well.

Quote:
Okay, so I guess that's a no then, unfuzziness is the way to go.


Look at it this way. We rate the JAS-39C at 1056.46; the Su-30 at 1161.12. Now in a year of so, there is a fight over the Baltic between JAS-39Cs and Su-30s and it works out dead even. Say four out of twelve aircraft on each side go down. For that battle, therefore, we can conclude that fuzzy factors reduced the Su-30s rating by 104.66 or about 9 percent. If there are a few more skirmishes and that 9 percent keeps turning up across a variety of Russian aircraft, we can suggest that, for these engagements, its something to do with the pilots. May be skill, may be flawed doctrine. But, we have identified a problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Fighters Other, V6.2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:55 pm 
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Commandant Ours Polaire wrote:
While there are several aircraft I would like to see included, I do wonder where the A-50 airframe comes in at (in various forms), or is that seen as a strike platform?)


The A-50 AEW Bird? I'll get to them eventually, I promise.

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 Post subject: Re: Fighters Other, V6.2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:38 pm 
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Frank Underwood wrote:
Commandant Ours Polaire wrote:
While there are several aircraft I would like to see included, I do wonder where the A-50 airframe comes in at (in various forms), or is that seen as a strike platform?)


The A-50 AEW Bird? I'll get to them eventually, I promise.


The South Korean TA-50 and FA-50s are what I was talking about.

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 Post subject: Re: Fighters Other, V6.2
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:45 am 
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Yeah, the FA-50 Golden Eagle would be interesting to see, since as I recall it's been pitched to the Filipinos etc. as a cheap air-defense bird.

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 Post subject: Re: Fighters Other, V6.2
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:44 am 
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Ok, the FA-50 is in.

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 Post subject: Re: Fighters Other, V6.2
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:36 am 
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Frank Underwood wrote:
Ok, the FA-50 is in.


Thank you. It's score does make a lot of sense - It is an advanced trainer repurposed as a light fighter, and offers early F-16 level capabilities for less than we can build an F-16 today.

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 Post subject: Re: Fighters Other, V6.2
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:25 pm 
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Well the new Supreme Commander was just announced as Micael Bydén (stylish name btw ;) ) who's the current Airforce top dog, ex Viggen pilot and Air Attache in DC among other things. So there's a presumably amiable big boss to negotiate with at this end now.

As for RCS it'll be interesting to see what can be done for the E version, although the "stealth detection" capability seems to have a much higher priority.

Speaking of the JAS39 vs. Su-30, the fighter jocks seems to be considerably more concerned with facing the MiG-31BM. They say the speed and altitude capabilities makes it harder to manage for the Gripen.

Some other things:
I notice that there's two J29A listings with different values, is one of them intended to be a different version?

Have you used the same or different range for the 39A and 39D? There's a common error in the listed specs here.

Have you used the same or different radar range for the baseline 37 and the 37D?

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 Post subject: Re: Fighters Other, V6.2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:14 am 
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Stuart,

Any chance of doing a rating for the CW-21 and/or CW-21B?

Image

http://www.warbirdforum.com/cw21.htm

I don't know how accurate the specs are here but perhaps you or someone else has access to better data?

They saw action in the NEI with the Dutch and some were at least evaluated by the Republic of China. As I understand, they were a surprise to the Japanese with their ability to stay with the Zeros in a climb...

Regards,

Rich

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 Post subject: Re: Fighters Other, V6.2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:04 am 
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It's in. I put it in the USAAF section. Rates out at CW-21A = 66.78 and CW-21B = 72.32 which is in line with contemporaries. It's inferior to the P-40 and dramatically worse than the P-38 though which was the great hope of the USAAF fighter people when Curtiss-Wright were prosing the CW-21. That's probably why the US wasn't interested.

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 Post subject: Re: Fighters Other, V6.2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:38 pm 
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Speaking of the table system, might it be possible to get the output data posted in a spreadsheet to make it easier for us to use for other projects? I'm not asking for the algorithm, just the numbers.

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