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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:35 am 
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USAAF/USAF
DB-7A 78.56
DB-7B 88.14
DB-7C 88.20
A-20A 103.81
A-20B 105.56
A-20C 106.71
A-20G 109.72
A-20J 108.90
A-22A 69.95
A-26B 143.53
A-26C 140.78
A-26K 148.87
A-28A 84.07
A-29A 93.03
A-30A 112.41
A-38A 131.39
B-57B 245.48
A-7D 332.55
A10A 271.92
A10C 306.92
F-117A 219.28
USN
A-6A 322.89
A-6E 347.27
A-7A 292.92
A-7E 332.55
RAF
Anson Mk.1 34.41
Battle Mk.1 50.06
Beaufort Mk.1 71.52
Botha 59.80
Blenheim Mk.1 68.30
Blenheim Mk.IV 83.09
Beaufighter VI 103.66
Beaufighter X 111.63
Mosquito B.IV 111.27
Mosquito B.XVI 131.85
Mosquito B.35 134.22
Brigand 100.05
Canberra B.2 220.32
Canberra B.6 240.42
Canberra B(I).8 257.95
Buccaneer S.1 243.09
Buccaneer S.2 286.26



Medium-Light bombers are essentially medium bombers that do a light bomber's job. Put another way, they are a rich man's light bomber.

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Last edited by Francis Urquhart on Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:08 pm 
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At last, we have more! I've been quietly suffering through withdrawal for the past year or so.
Quite surprised by how high the A-7 is and how low the Buccaneer is.
The decision to cancel the Grizzly makes more sense now, too. It's no better than the A-26, and uses badly-needed engines.

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Last edited by ByronC on Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:10 pm 
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The Banana a lot less effective than I anticipated.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:52 pm 
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I'm curious about the (Y)A-7F, or was there not enough data on it?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:55 pm 
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Craiglxviii wrote:
The Banana a lot less effective than I anticipated.

It's really about average for its generation and role. What pushes it down is its poor avionics and lack of a defensive armament, the latter being a fairly trivial issue. That's really why aircraft of this general type have faded away; really they don't offer anything that a fighter-bomber can't do just as well or better.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:02 pm 
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Commandant Ours Polaire wrote:
I'm curious about the (Y)A-7F, or was there not enough data on it?

Usual problem; not enough reliable data.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:06 pm 
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Any reliable data on the Bristol Buckingham that you could use to get a score?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:07 pm 
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Francis Urquhart wrote:
Craiglxviii wrote:
The Banana a lot less effective than I anticipated.

It's really about average for its generation and role. What pushes it down is its poor avionics and lack of a defensive armament, the latter being a fairly trivial issue. That's really why aircraft of this general type have faded away; really they don't offer anything that a fighter-bomber can't do just as well or better.


Which is interesting given the original RAF pilots view of the Tornado... "Give us this <points at a Bucc> with the kit off that <points at Tonka>".

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:14 pm 
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pdf27 wrote:
Any reliable data on the Bristol Buckingham that you could use to get a score?

It's in medium-heavy. 110.6

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:17 pm 
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We did have some rather grand model names back then...

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:18 pm 
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Craiglxviii wrote:
Which is interesting given the original RAF pilots view of the Tornado... "Give us this <points at a Bucc> with the kit off that <points at Tonka>".

Same problem as the Lightning really. "No point in spending real money on it, we'll be replacing it in a year or two."

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:17 pm 
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The Grizzly was a very specialised type - that the USAAF didn't have a specific need for, hence its appetite for engines and the A-26 doing everything else it could do resulting in its biting the dust, cool as it was.

One wonders if Beech's production capacitity vis-a-vis the need for C-45s might also have had something to do with it...

And a Buccaneer S.3 with Tornado-generation avionics is a very interesting thing to ponder.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:50 pm 
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Shouldn't the F-117 be on this list? With a very low rating, of course. Also the A-37 and the Goshawk in ground attack mode.

Also, were there no medium-lights before the A20, or were they undifferentiated enough to land in another category?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:12 pm 
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KDahm wrote:
Shouldn't the F-117 be on this list? With a very low rating, of course. Also the A-37 and the Goshawk in ground attack mode.


Yes, it should. Oooops. I'll fix it ASAP (EDIT) Done it; 219.28. Not very low but about 2/3 its conventional equivalents. That gives a good picture of the kind of sacrifices we paid for the stealth capability.

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Also, were there no medium-lights before the A20, or were they undifferentiated enough to land in another category?

Before the A-20 (actually, before the DB-7) they were genuine light bombers. Single-engine air craft intended for army cooperation. The DB-7 marked the development of the medium-light that was aimed at a step behind the front line, not the front line itself. The A-37 and the Goshawk though are genuine light bombers. So is the Harrier.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:55 am 
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Francis Urquhart wrote:
KDahm wrote:
Shouldn't the F-117 be on this list? With a very low rating, of course. Also the A-37 and the Goshawk in ground attack mode.


Yes, it should. Oooops. I'll fix it ASAP (EDIT) Done it; 219.28. Not very low but about 2/3 its conventional equivalents. That gives a good picture of the kind of sacrifices we paid for the stealth capability.


Hooray, the Banana does beat something jet powered! Does the F-117 have a cockpit stopwatch of the same precision though?!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:29 am 
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Craiglxviii wrote:
Hooray, the Banana does beat something jet powered! Does the F-117 have a cockpit stopwatch of the same precision though?!


The Banana is OK; it beat the A-10A . . . . .

The real problem is that the whole medium-light category of aircraft was a contorted compromise. What really happened was that it became apparent in the 1930s to most people that the concept of the light bomber as it had been used in WW1 and the 1920s was being overtaken by aircraft development and that these lightly-armed aircraft intended to work with the Army just were not going to survive against any semi-serious opposition. Once aircraft engine power reached a point where we could hang a worthwhile bombload on a fighter, the light bomber category was really becoming obsolete (point at issue, look at the way the light bombers more or less disappeared from the aircraft carrier inventory during WW2.

This forced WW2 airforces to do one of two things. Either toss the whole light bomber job to bomb-carrying fighters (which turned out to be the right answer) or to develop a light bomber that could survive and do a useful job. The problem was that a light bomber that could survive and do a reasonable job was a medium bomber. Again, its significant that the "A for Attack" category in the USAAF/USAF vanished postwar and only re-occurred for political reasons.

The Navies were different; they kept genuine light bombers in because maritime attack was a specialized role, akin to ground support but with different demands. In fact, Navy light bombers had to do both maritime attack and supporting ground troops leading to the A-1/A-4/A-7 families. It's notable that as the significance of maritime attack faded and ground support grew, the Navy lights became medium-lights.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:08 am 
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In that case, would it make sense to combine the Medium-Lights, the Lights, and the Fighter-Bombers together, since they are doing the same job and are transmogrifications of each other?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:11 am 
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The F-117 seems to validate the model, as it has a similar penalty to the B-2.

Are we going to see values for the fighter-bombers? I'd be interested in that.
Also, I'll repeat the request for the output in spreadsheet form. I have some ideas on how to implement that in a way that makes it easy for us to play with the data, and then update it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:30 am 
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KDahm wrote:
In that case, would it make sense to combine the Medium-Lights, the Lights, and the Fighter-Bombers together, since they are doing the same job and are transmogrifications of each other?

It would indeed, and this is something I'm considering. The only problem is, that would be a huge category and I'm trying to keep the size of each chart down to manageable bites. There are a huge number of light bombers, especially in the 1920s and 1930s when everybody and his brother built one.

Another thing I'm considering for V7.0 is to do two values for each fighter, one as a fighter, the other as a fighter-bomber.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:28 am 
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Francis Urquhart wrote:
KDahm wrote:
In that case, would it make sense to combine the Medium-Lights, the Lights, and the Fighter-Bombers together, since they are doing the same job and are transmogrifications of each other?

It would indeed, and this is something I'm considering. The only problem is, that would be a huge category and I'm trying to keep the size of each chart down to manageable bites. There are a huge number of light bombers, especially in the 1920s and 1930s when everybody and his brother built one.

Another thing I'm considering for V7.0 is to do two values for each fighter, one as a fighter, the other as a fighter-bomber.


Stuart, do you have a Bomber score for the various flavours of F-35 at all yet please?

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