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 Post subject: Star Wars -The Last Jedi
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:52 pm 
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At the risk of upsetting some people I’ll go ahead and say that I actually liked it. I can see why some ”purists” dislike it but I also feel that Star Wars have to evolve a bit and the story with its twists and all and the overall directing effort was well executed.
Looking forward to the next installment!

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:27 pm 
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[Reveal] Spoiler: REDACTED
It was entertaining, and had some really good twists and turns, but like The Force Awakens, it misses some key notes.

The Rey/Kylo lightsaber duel was epic. There was also some really decent sexual tension. Those two are gonna kill each other, or shag like bunnies.

Poe is a lovable idiot, and Leia stunning him was classic. So was the Dreadnought captain's dialogue. He's the only guy in the entire 'verse who understands the magic three letters: CAP! Finn getting tazed repeatedly was a decent gag, and I actually liked a lot of the humor.

Both sides' militaries are so bloody incompetent, even Janeway can take 'em . . . Though I def got the feel the writers wanted the story to be about people making lots of screwups, which they did. A lot.

I also liked the Petainesque Luke storyline, and his end was fantastic.

Unlike Rogue One, it misses some major emotional moments. Rogue One was a last stand movie, and it did a better job of conveying the right feels of spite and taking an escort with you to hell when the only options left are how you die, why, and making dying mean something. Things that should be climactic in The Last Jedi fall flat.

They also missed classic dialogue. When you're doing a suicide light speed jump into an enemy fleet, the only words are "RAMMING SPEED!"

We hear a lot about the Porgs, but the horse analogues and especially the crystal foxes were cute as hell, and whatever idiot at Disney decided not to stock stores with stuffed animal versions of them needs to be flogged.

Overall, it really was "Kylo Ren's horrible, terrible, very bad not good day." Dude really needs to get laid.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:14 am 
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I liked the Throne room scene, it actually surprised me in a good way. I appreciated the movie was not a shameless remake of previous movies in the series.

As for the rest of it....

Honestly it was a mess. I can understand how people liked it, but... I think the major problems were as follows

a over-reliance on emotional moments that the movie did not earn. There are numerous scenes where the movie expects us to feel a emotional connection, but I just didn't care. This is a conflict where deaths would be numbered in the billions, possible trillions. I don't care if some random rebel gets killed.

Over-reliance on actors that are in over their heads. Honestly the metric ton of cocaine that went through Carrie Fischer has taken its toll. I'm not sure if its the direction or the acting ability of John Boyega as Finn that fails but he just is not a compelling character. I couldn't care less about the character arc of Poe after the movie made it clear that everything he did would be wrong becuase the movie made it so. For example the movie makes a big deal of him violating orders and sacrificing the rebel bomber fleet to take out a dreadnought early in the movie. Everything is built up to show this was a mistake. But if he hadn't, the dreadnought would have destroyed the rebel cruiser, ending the movie. This is annoying.

Poor timing of comic relief. There was comic relief in the original trilogy, but those movies knew when to drop the comic relief and play it serious, this movie really doesn't.


Ah well, maybe I'm just in a foul mood. It is interesting to note the split between the professional reviews (Over 90% positive at rotten tomatoes) and the average moviegoers (About 52%, which is horrible, even bad movies usually get 50% or more)


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:17 am 
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Nathan45 wrote:
Ah well, maybe I'm just in a foul mood. It is interesting to note the split between the professional reviews (Over 90% positive at rotten tomatoes) and the average moviegoers (About 52%, which is horrible, even bad movies usually get 50% or more)

Apparently a lot of the "average moviegoers" panning it are "OMG TEH WIMMIN IN MAH STAR WARZ" trolls...

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:44 am 
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I went to see it with my two sons (ages 10 and 7) yesterday. They loved it.

A mate of mine (aged 40 something with the biggest collection of Star Wars memorabilia of anybody I know) saw it at 0001 on Thursday (as part of a The Force Awakens double bill). He hates it.

I thought it was ok, albeit riddled with errors and plot holes. I thought that
[Reveal] Spoiler:
the pathos and sense of getting old, the passing of the torch to a younger generation, the sense of mistakes from long ago coming back to haunt you, the questions of people’s legacy and experienced old timers coming back to sort things out
was much better done in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan.

I think that my sons are the target audience, not me and my mate. So the important thing is what they think, not us.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:58 pm 
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My wife got through it without going into labor, so that was nice. I haven't seen it and probably won't until she buys the DVD and makes me sit through it some evening.

Since they were obviously planning to kill off one major character from the original trilogy in each movie, how are they going to kill Leia in the third? Copious use of CGI?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:28 pm 
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Theodore wrote:
Since they were obviously planning to kill off one major character from the original trilogy in each movie, how are they going to kill Leia in the third? Copious use of CGI?


That's easy.

First minute of film, possibly pre-credits

Officer on deck: Captain, Princess Leia is approaching in her spaceship
***Massive Exolosion Destroys Spaceship in spectacular CGI display.***
Captain: OMG. The Princess! She's Dead!!!!!

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:56 pm 
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Francis Urquhart wrote:
Theodore wrote:
Since they were obviously planning to kill off one major character from the original trilogy in each movie, how are they going to kill Leia in the third? Copious use of CGI?


That's easy.

First minute of film, possibly pre-credits

Officer on deck: Captain, Princess Leia is approaching in her spaceship
***Massive Exolosion Destroys Spaceship in spectacular CGI display.***
Captain: OMG. The Princess! She's Dead!!!!!

It’s interesting to note that this movie could have easily been tweaked to include the death of Leia but they didn’t go for that. Makes me think that there’s some sort of plan for the next movie that they have fate in.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:15 pm 
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Honestly a CGI Leia wouldn't be much different, might even be a improvement. (yes I'm a horrible person)

Considering how fast tech is evolving pure, post uncanny valley computer characters may only be a decade or so off.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:29 pm 
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Nathan45 wrote:
Honestly a CGI Leia wouldn't be much different, might even be a improvement. (yes I'm a horrible person)

Considering how fast tech is evolving pure, post uncanny valley computer characters may only be a decade or so off.

I doubt Billie Lourd would allow a CGI visual of Carrie to be used. Better to just expand Billie's character's role a bit, even retcon her into Leia's secret daughter and fans will be mostly happy.

Speaking of CGI I read some stories that claim that George Lucas' only complaint with the movie was that they should have skipped the sets and models and gone for more CGI instead. Classic Lucas. :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:06 pm 
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Micael wrote:
Nathan45 wrote:
Honestly a CGI Leia wouldn't be much different, might even be a improvement. (yes I'm a horrible person)

Considering how fast tech is evolving pure, post uncanny valley computer characters may only be a decade or so off.

I doubt Billie Lourd would allow a CGI visual of Carrie to be used. Better to just expand Billie's character's role a bit, even retcon her into Leia's secret daughter and fans will be mostly happy.


I dunno about CGI, but apparently, they actually have permission from the family to use archive footage of Carrie Fisher in the next movie, but have decided not to do that.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:39 am 
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I rather enjoyed it, if nothing else for the reasonably accurate depiction of the fate of resistance groups - gradual annihilation. Very much not a remake of The Empire Strikes Back, too - despite similarities in the opening scenes, and a few other nods in that direction. My only real criticisms would be that some of the humour was rather forced and incongruous, and the appearance of Yoda didn't really do it for me. I can see why they did it, but I think the same effect might have been better achieved differently.

The complaints about 'diversity' from some so-called fans I just can't see. This is a media franchise full of freaking aliens, and your complaint is that some of the humans didn't have your favourite combination of genitals and skin tone? Get a life.

Oh, and if Rey's parents are really nobody, then I'm a nerf herder.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:23 am 
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RLBH wrote:
Oh, and if Rey's parents are really nobody, then I'm a nerf herder.


Assuming they're not deliberately doing that to contrast the 'everbody's a Kenobi if they're not a Skywalker' that infested the EU, that actually made me think of the fact that Luke's parential figures were nobodies...

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:48 am 
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Looking back at the original Star Wars (it wasn’t called Episode IV when I first saw it) and one of the main points was how a farm by boy ended up becoming a hero.

Since then it feels like everything has become centred on the Skywalker family - if you’re not a Skywalker, either through bloodline or marriage, or at very least a friend of the Skywalkers then you’re nothing.The whole Galactic Civil War has turned into a domestic dispute because a spoilt brat was told that he couldn’t be a Jedi then couldn’t get married. Seriously if Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi had done what the Jedi Council had told them would the Empire have risen and the Jedi fallen?

The whole thing of a Jedi rising from nowhere, somebody with no relationship to the Skywalker clan, is something that’s been canon since the start of Star Wars: Rebels


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:24 am 
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When I first saw Force Awakens, I liked it...

Then, looking at it more and more, it just felt recycled, and making Ben Solo the new Vader was just so blissful delight lazy. Furthermore, to some extent, I think they have gotten stuck in the Hollywood bubble.

It's not prequel-trilogy awful, but they could have done much better. They could have salvaged far more of the EU in terms of characters, ditching everything after the "Hand of Thrawn" duology, and picking a few highlights of the EU as it was (keep "Courtship of Princess Leia," Thrawn Trilogy, Dark Empire/Dark Empire II/Empire's End, and the Hand of Thrawn duology, along with elements and characters of the Jedi Academy trilogy, Children of the Jedi, Darksaber, The New Rebellion, the Corellian Trilogy, and the X-wing book series).

Yes, Ben Solo's got some Vader in him, but he has TWICE as much Han Solo as he had Vader. The same is arguably true of the kids Leia had in the EU. Maybe you could have had Ben Solo disillusioned with the Jedi, and cynical, pursuing his dad's line of work because he feels it's more honest than the Jedi Order was.

Luke and his family could have been searching for a Jedi temple... and a Jedi master, trying to turn the tide against the rising First Order... led by Palpatine's illegitimate son. Poe Dameron's initial mission to Jakku could have been multi-tiered. Yes, he's getting the map, but maybe he's also asking if they've seen Ben. Han is doing the same thing, putting his search for the stolen Millennium Falcon on hold to find his son.

They had a chance to really make a good Star Wars with some effort, and they've chosen the easy way out.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:27 pm 
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6.5 out of 10.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:42 pm 
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clancyphile wrote:
When I first saw Force Awakens, I liked it...

Then, looking at it more and more, it just felt recycled, and making Ben Solo the new Vader was just so blissful delight lazy. Furthermore, to some extent, I think they have gotten stuck in the Hollywood bubble.

It's not prequel-trilogy awful, but they could have done much better. They could have salvaged far more of the EU in terms of characters, ditching everything after the "Hand of Thrawn" duology, and picking a few highlights of the EU as it was (keep "Courtship of Princess Leia," Thrawn Trilogy, Dark Empire/Dark Empire II/Empire's End, and the Hand of Thrawn duology, along with elements and characters of the Jedi Academy trilogy, Children of the Jedi, Darksaber, The New Rebellion, the Corellian Trilogy, and the X-wing book series).

Yes, Ben Solo's got some Vader in him, but he has TWICE as much Han Solo as he had Vader. The same is arguably true of the kids Leia had in the EU. Maybe you could have had Ben Solo disillusioned with the Jedi, and cynical, pursuing his dad's line of work because he feels it's more honest than the Jedi Order was.

Luke and his family could have been searching for a Jedi temple... and a Jedi master, trying to turn the tide against the rising First Order... led by Palpatine's illegitimate son. Poe Dameron's initial mission to Jakku could have been multi-tiered. Yes, he's getting the map, but maybe he's also asking if they've seen Ben. Han is doing the same thing, putting his search for the stolen Millennium Falcon on hold to find his son.

They had a chance to really make a good Star Wars with some effort, and they've chosen the easy way out.

Well said. I'm not 100% with you on the books I'd keep (anything by Kevin J Anderson should probably be removed, and Black Fleet Crisis is really good), but they could have done a lot better job of incorporating EU elements. It appears Mara Jade is not in this movie, which was the last possible way they could have salvaged it for me.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:50 am 
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Ben Shapiro pretty much summed it up for me (dont watch/listen if you dont want spoilers obv)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:18 pm 
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ByronC wrote:
clancyphile wrote:
When I first saw Force Awakens, I liked it...

Then, looking at it more and more, it just felt recycled, and making Ben Solo the new Vader was just so blissful delight lazy. Furthermore, to some extent, I think they have gotten stuck in the Hollywood bubble.

It's not prequel-trilogy awful, but they could have done much better. They could have salvaged far more of the EU in terms of characters, ditching everything after the "Hand of Thrawn" duology, and picking a few highlights of the EU as it was (keep "Courtship of Princess Leia," Thrawn Trilogy, Dark Empire/Dark Empire II/Empire's End, and the Hand of Thrawn duology, along with elements and characters of the Jedi Academy trilogy, Children of the Jedi, Darksaber, The New Rebellion, the Corellian Trilogy, and the X-wing book series).

Yes, Ben Solo's got some Vader in him, but he has TWICE as much Han Solo as he had Vader. The same is arguably true of the kids Leia had in the EU. Maybe you could have had Ben Solo disillusioned with the Jedi, and cynical, pursuing his dad's line of work because he feels it's more honest than the Jedi Order was.

Luke and his family could have been searching for a Jedi temple... and a Jedi master, trying to turn the tide against the rising First Order... led by Palpatine's illegitimate son. Poe Dameron's initial mission to Jakku could have been multi-tiered. Yes, he's getting the map, but maybe he's also asking if they've seen Ben. Han is doing the same thing, putting his search for the stolen Millennium Falcon on hold to find his son.

They had a chance to really make a good Star Wars with some effort, and they've chosen the easy way out.

Well said. I'm not 100% with you on the books I'd keep (anything by Kevin J Anderson should probably be removed, and Black Fleet Crisis is really good), but they could have done a lot better job of incorporating EU elements. It appears Mara Jade is not in this movie, which was the last possible way they could have salvaged it for me.


I'm only keeping elements and characters from Anderson. Jedi Academy Trilogy had its weak points, but I like Kyp, and I liked the whole Maw Installation concept.

Black Fleet Crisis does look intriguing as something to keep in part, but large parts of the plot didn't work and were overtaken by the prequel trilogy, IMO, especially the "Luke's mom" bit.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:44 pm 
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The movie had a lot of good ideas that were so badly implemented I have to give it a thumbs down.

I liked Rey not being related to anyone. I liked the death of Snoke. I like Kylo Ren in general - shame he is the only character with a personality or an interesting back story. I like that the rebels actually appeared weak for a change and that things could go wrong for them. You can just tell us that they are weak but when they effortlessly blow up every superweapon by some subtle scheme that always works flawlessly I stop believing. They made it work this time because the rebels can actually lose. Since the rebels' weakness is the main source of tension in all these films, that's vital.

Problems... where to begin? Essentially all the characters are cardboard cut-outs. I don't mind female characters but if you then feel that they can never be evil, never be weak, never be in doubt, etc. it is boring. Rey is not Luke because Luke did not know who he wanted to be and actually wasn't very good at using the force. Even at the end he was just mediocre and the emperor expected to defeat him effortlessly in a straight fight - which he did. Rey is perfect so what is interesting about her?

It's not just the female characters though. The film kills Snoke (which was a great scene) but it falls flat because we still don't know who Snoke is or why he is so evil other than that he has an ugly face and a creepy hologram machine. Also, if you kill your main evil genius leader via his own hubris and mistakes without first establishing him to be a competent genius with actual actions, it loses its impact. Maybe he was just an idiot all along? Huk is now both an idiot and a coward, having previously been the competent rational evil to Ren's childlike evil, and Ren has always been an unstable half-child, so who in this organisation was competent? Why were we ever afraid of them?

On the other side, why do I care that the Jedi tree got burnt down? The film never established that the Jedi tree was important. It's implicit that it was, but there was no emotion behind it because we never saw it before. You've got to build something up before you tear it down.

The Hoth scene was just terrible. Why did they need to rip off some other film so completely that I sit up and think, "Ah, yes, I am not in a magical far away place, but watching a movie. I have that one on DVD!" The drama with Luke and Ren was actually very well done but they could have done it without the backdrop.

I echo the uselessness of Fin's character. Remove him from all his scenes and the film does not change. You could equally well have done that whole mission with just the Asian woman and the pirate. But it's generally better if you use characters that we've seen before and will see again (Asian woman dies, pirate might come back but it's not obvious he can or would).

The mess of characters, the vast majority of which aren't well developed or used, is the number one biggest failure of this series of films. Like with Star Trek, Abrams does not seem to understand that the original films were all about people and relationships, and the backdrops were just that. The Force was all about people. You had vast battles going on but all that really mattered were the handful of Jedi, and their friends and retainers, who were mostly doing their thing with words and subterfuge rather than fighting. Lucas totally lost the plot with Episodes 1-3 and thought Jedi were just the good guy equivalent of the end of level boss and all about their laser swords. Abrams does not seem much better, he just disguises it by being better at action, better at pacing, and better at superficially ripping off the first three Lucas films.

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