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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:51 pm 
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Johnnie Lyle wrote:
jemhouston wrote:
The trouble with building ships for mundane duty is they seldom encounter mundane threats outside the inner core. Even then, outsize threats tend to leak in.

Aye, but that's been the case since Nog and Og built their first raft.

You need numbers, and that means something that's good enough for most of the tasks it will encounter. For a situation where you get in over your head, you invest in the butt in the center seat, not equipment. That's true for pretty much every navy in every situation.

Overwhelming superiority is good warfighting, but makes for bad storytelling.


This was (the UFP in SFB)'s rationale for the DD. It cost half that of a CA with 3/4 the apparent firepower and the same lab facilities -same saucer, not quite identical layout, same bridge facilities, armament, powerplant, sensors- but omitting the engineering hull and only one warp nacelle. Pretty much the Kelvin of the JJTrekVerse. Due to only half of the warp power the DDs found it difficult to use their heavy weapons (photorps) and were rather slow when charging weapons. The HDW had plenty of power and none of the constraints of the DD.

FFs on the other hand had 80% of the power of a DD but half the weapons, making them much more balanced a design albeit a more fragile one.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:24 pm 
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Johnnie:
The Constellation/Akule hybrid idea sounds interesting. Think we might go with that.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:13 pm 
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Micael wrote:
Johnnie:
The Constellation/Akule hybrid idea sounds interesting. Think we might go with that.

Huzzah!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:18 pm 
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Craiglxviii wrote:
Johnnie Lyle wrote:
jemhouston wrote:
The trouble with building ships for mundane duty is they seldom encounter mundane threats outside the inner core. Even then, outsize threats tend to leak in.

Aye, but that's been the case since Nog and Og built their first raft.

You need numbers, and that means something that's good enough for most of the tasks it will encounter. For a situation where you get in over your head, you invest in the butt in the center seat, not equipment. That's true for pretty much every navy in every situation.

Overwhelming superiority is good warfighting, but makes for bad storytelling.


This was (the UFP in SFB)'s rationale for the DD. It cost half that of a CA with 3/4 the apparent firepower and the same lab facilities -same saucer, not quite identical layout, same bridge facilities, armament, powerplant, sensors- but omitting the engineering hull and only one warp nacelle. Pretty much the Kelvin of the JJTrekVerse. Due to only half of the warp power the DDs found it difficult to use their heavy weapons (photorps) and were rather slow when charging weapons. The HDW had plenty of power and none of the constraints of the DD.

FFs on the other hand had 80% of the power of a DD but half the weapons, making them much more balanced a design albeit a more fragile one.

Which explains why DDs went from 1 nacelle to 2, 3 then 4. Frigates only went to 3 nacelles (the battle frigates).

Given that the CONSTELLATION looks to be a descendent of the HDW, the design appears to be very successful, squeezing out or supplementing the MIRANDAs.

However, Star Fleet seems to have decided it needed more heavy cruisers, since they're popping out EXCELSIORs like rabbits, and they have long, long lives.

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Jack: Your shoe seems to have the ballistic capabilities of a .38 revolver.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:46 pm 
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gtg947h wrote:
Micael wrote:
“So...you’re saying...” he began before Th’tavar filled in the rest. “That the outer shell has, for lack of a better analogy, swallowed the cube and is having indigestion."
Oh.

I jumped straight to the Naiads from TLA...

Forgot to reply to this:
Not familiar with that, what is it?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:43 am 
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Johnnie Lyle wrote:
Craiglxviii wrote:
Johnnie Lyle wrote:
The trouble with building ships for mundane duty is they seldom encounter mundane threats outside the inner core. Even then, outsize threats tend to leak in.


This was (the UFP in SFB)'s rationale for the DD. It cost half that of a CA with 3/4 the apparent firepower and the same lab facilities -same saucer, not quite identical layout, same bridge facilities, armament, powerplant, sensors- but omitting the engineering hull and only one warp nacelle. Pretty much the Kelvin of the JJTrekVerse. Due to only half of the warp power the DDs found it difficult to use their heavy weapons (photorps) and were rather slow when charging weapons. The HDW had plenty of power and none of the constraints of the DD.

FFs on the other hand had 80% of the power of a DD but half the weapons, making them much more balanced a design albeit a more fragile one.

Which explains why DDs went from 1 nacelle to 2, 3 then 4. Frigates only went to 3 nacelles (the battle frigates).

Given that the CONSTELLATION looks to be a descendent of the HDW, the design appears to be very successful, squeezing out or supplementing the MIRANDAs.

However, Star Fleet seems to have decided it needed more heavy cruisers, since they're popping out EXCELSIORs like rabbits, and they have long, long lives.


Now I was never sure if the EXCELSIOR class were the CXs, or if those were the CONSTITUTION Refits...

Not to confuse universes here. I know SFB shares quite a few elements with Trek, up until 1979 at least... just checking SSDs the HDW is a DD (single CA nacelle) with a pair of FF nacelles grafted on a la MIRANDA (either above or below, unsure).

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:14 am 
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Craiglxviii wrote:
Johnnie Lyle wrote:
Craiglxviii wrote:
This was (the UFP in SFB)'s rationale for the DD. It cost half that of a CA with 3/4 the apparent firepower and the same lab facilities -same saucer, not quite identical layout, same bridge facilities, armament, powerplant, sensors- but omitting the engineering hull and only one warp nacelle. Pretty much the Kelvin of the JJTrekVerse. Due to only half of the warp power the DDs found it difficult to use their heavy weapons (photorps) and were rather slow when charging weapons. The HDW had plenty of power and none of the constraints of the DD.

FFs on the other hand had 80% of the power of a DD but half the weapons, making them much more balanced a design albeit a more fragile one.

Which explains why DDs went from 1 nacelle to 2, 3 then 4. Frigates only went to 3 nacelles (the battle frigates).

Given that the CONSTELLATION looks to be a descendent of the HDW, the design appears to be very successful, squeezing out or supplementing the MIRANDAs.

However, Star Fleet seems to have decided it needed more heavy cruisers, since they're popping out EXCELSIORs like rabbits, and they have long, long lives.


Now I was never sure if the EXCELSIOR class were the CXs, or if those were the CONSTITUTION Refits...

I thought the CONSTITUTION refit was the CX. EXCELSIOR is closer to a dreadnought, or at least a BC, in terms of sheer nastiness and size.

Craiglxviii wrote:
Not to confuse universes here. I know SFB shares quite a few elements with Trek, up until 1979 at least... just checking SSDs the HDW is a DD (single CA nacelle) with a pair of FF nacelles grafted on a la MIRANDA (either above or below, unsure).

Per the Amarillo Design Bureau miniatures, that's a war destroyer, not a heavy war destroyer. Two nacelles above the saucer, one below:

Quote:
The Federation knew that even the excellent Burke-class frigate was increasingly vulnerable in fleet battles and as a lone patrol or picket ship. They held a competition for an improved "small ship for small jobs" and selected the USS Ortega for that role. The ship used three frigate engines mounted to a larger saucer.


Though you're right, the SSD calls the war destroyer a heavy destroyer.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:00 am 
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My mistake.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:50 am 
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Sound to me like a SFB Battle Frigate (FFB). Similar to the War Destroyer (DW) but it kept more of the frigate saucer.

FFB added a 3rd frigate engine and a 3rd photon to the basic frigate saucer.
DW had 3 frigate engines and 3 photons on an enlarged frigate saucer.

According to the fluff, they were both an attempt to get a destroyer out of a frigate. The DW mostly worked. The FFB mostly didn't.

EDIT: Here's a 3 view of the FFB,
Image

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:06 am 
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THAT'S what I was looking for.

I never had the late-War modules and only fairly recently Advanced Missions- that's my excuse anyway :P

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:38 am 
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Craiglxviii wrote:
My mistake.

No worries.

But it does give Micael another option. The IRON DUKEs could be updated war destroyers, if you view the CONSTELLATIONs as updated Heavy War Destroyers, or even successors to the NCAs (the three nacelle version of the NCLs).

Looking like this:
Image

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:57 am 
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Interesting isn't it that the saucer remains pretty much standard across the DD- DW- NCL- NCA- CA range... from memory the DN saw a much deeper saucer.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:07 pm 
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Craiglxviii wrote:
Interesting isn't it that the saucer remains pretty much standard across the DD- DW- NCL- NCA- CA range... from memory the DN saw a much deeper saucer.

The same way all Klingon ships have that long neck.

At least in the description of the NCA, the NCA and NCL explicitly use the same saucer. It makes sense from a mass production standpoint.

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Phryne: I hit the lock with me shoe.
Jack: Your shoe seems to have the ballistic capabilities of a .38 revolver.
Phryne: Fancy that.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:36 pm 
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Johnnie Lyle wrote:
Craiglxviii wrote:
Interesting isn't it that the saucer remains pretty much standard across the DD- DW- NCL- NCA- CA range... from memory the DN saw a much deeper saucer.

The same way all Klingon ships have that long neck.

At least in the description of the NCA, the NCA and NCL explicitly use the same saucer. It makes sense from a mass production standpoint.


But... that neck was only shared between D6 and D7. Other ships had the feature but used different structures. It worked for them, sure, but they can't have achieved the same economies of scale that the UFP did.

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Bernard Woolley: You mean by terrorists?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:04 pm 
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Chapter 4

Bridge, Black Prince

The work on the bridge had settled down in what could almost pass for a routine under the circumstances.
Once V’lok and Th’tavar had presented their analysis they’d returned to their respective stations and mostly kept quiet. The rest of the bridge crew, apart from Wilsk now consisting of four junior enlisted, had also been on the silent side and only asked a question or two for what started to seem like an eternity to Starfleet’s newest - acting - Captain.
The Chief had showed up as promised but once he’d gotten up to speed on everything he’d quickly excused himself explaining that he needed to attend to some pressing matters.
Vague.
In Wilsk’s experience when a Chief was being intentionally vague it meant that they he or she was up to something, but he’d ignored it. Whatever it was he’d deal with it when he had to, if he had to.

Then finally the helmsman spoke. It was Adriana, the one with the plasma burn up her neck. She seemed to do okay and that pleased Wilsk more than she probably understood. He’d pushed her pretty hard lately, she’d been accepted to Starfleet Academy and he’d wanted to make sure that she’d be ready for the practical bits. The theory he knew she’d manage without missing a beat, quite a bright one.
Make the ship proud.

“Captain, we’re coming into visual range of Starbase 278 now.”
“On screen.” He’d already called a Red Alert and made sure everything was as ready as it could be so now he just had to wait for the first images to appear.

Heaven have mercy.
He heard someone let out a dampened “...no”, as he tried to process what he was seeing, that the Starbase was in a bad shape was apparent from the first glance but...

“Th’tavar?” First things first.
“No sign of the alien vessel Captain.” Th'tavar seemed relieved as he spoke.

“Good. V’lok, deep scans?” Wilsk turned to face the Vulcan.
“Catastrophic structural damage to large segments of the Starbase. Approximately one-fifth of the station mass has separated from the main structure and is free floating. I am however unable to get any useful readings of the interior, there are disruptive energy emissions originating from several locations in the station. Cause unknown.” The vulcan paused for a moment. “Judging from the visual appearance it is likely that much of the station interior lack a viable atmosphere.”
Most are probably dead.

“However” V’lok continued again, “I believe that the upper central core is sufficiently intact that life support could be functional. The exterior structure of the starship docks appears to have offered some protection.”
Wilsk pondered that for a moment. It was where most of the living quarters and administration was located. So if there was indeed life support still functioning there it was their best bet at finding survivors.
Time to send in the Macos.


Main cargo bay, Black Prince

The Macos looked impressive in their combat suits, apart from the practical aspects they had also been designed to be intimitating. Wilsk had to admit that the designers had come through on that, a dark grey and black camouflage pattern covered the exterior but he thought that even without that the size alone would be enough to scare most.
Not to mention the guns.

At least they hadn’t closed their visors yet. It helped that he could look them in the eyes.

“So you’re clear on everything?”
Anson nodded.
“Take a shuttle ride to the interior of the Starbase, search for survivors. Seems clear enough to me.”
Wilsk looked at his face carefully, still that same stone faced expression. Wonder what it’d take to change that.
“You’re going to go in mostly blind, the sensors can’t get make much sense of anything even though we’ve tried recalibrating them.” Wilsk didn’t like that very much, if they got in trouble he wouldn’t be able to do much to help them.
Again the sergeant seemed to have read his mind.
“I suggest we split the platoon into two shuttles Sir. One docks and commence searching while the other stand by close to the entry point so it can cover our escape if necessary.”
“Your call.” Better leave the details to the professionals.

With that Wilsk was about to tell them good luck and get back to the bridge but before he could the cargo bay door slid open.
“Sorry I’m late, been a while since I used this. Had to squeeze a bit to get into it if you know what I mean.”
Nikka stood before them in a powered space suit of his own, only this one wasn’t as much intimitating as it was eye catching.

The base of the suit was a light grey, the standard Starfleet color for this model. But that was probably the only thing according to regulation Wilsk imagined as he first looked at the red harness which was outfitted with an selection of every tool imaginable. Then he noticed with increasing disbelief a series of mismatched patches from different Starfleet - and alien it seemed - units that had accumulated in various spots not covered by the vest. Klingon great houses have patches?
“Ready to go!” and with that proclamation the Chief first patted the phaser he had in a leg holster and then something he’d attached with a carabiner to the front of the vest.

Anson looked on with perhaps even more disbelief at the whole spectacle and then realized what the Chief had just patted.
A coffee cup. He has a damn coffee cup attached to that clown suit.

“Oh no, Chief.” Wilsk snapped out of it and realize he had to say something before the Sergeant did, stone face or no the way he was staring it might be something less than polite.
“I need you here. Who else is going to run engineering?”

The Chief suddenly looked very serious.
“Look Captain. I know you need me here, but the best thing for the ship right now is to spend as little time at this Starbase as possible in case that ship comes back to have another go at it.” He pointed at the Macos. “These fellas are great at shooting things up and all that but if they’re going to have to blast their way through every emergency bulkheads and whatnot the search is going to take forever.
Let me help them deal with that and we can be on our way in half the time.”
For how long did you rehearse that speech?

“He has a point. I wasn’t too keen on using explosives anyway just in case we’d attract any unwanted attention.” Anson said reluctantly.
Damn.

Two against one. He didn’t like this one bit but he also wasn’t all that eager to get in an argument with these particular two if he could avoid it.
Damn, damn, damn.

“Fine.” he said curtly and left the cargo bay.
He already regretted having given in like that as he started to walk.


You two had better come back.

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Last edited by Micael on Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:11 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:13 pm 
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Huzzah! More!

And of course Klingon great houses have patches. They are the Dan Draper of advertising. What's the point of being a great warrior if nobody knows who you are?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:16 pm 
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Craiglxviii wrote:
THAT'S what I was looking for.

I never had the late-War modules and only fairly recently Advanced Missions- that's my excuse anyway :P

Just buy more minis.

I had to rescue a squadron of NCLs from the scrapheap. Poor things got slightly miscast and were like $2/per.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:47 pm 
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I dug out m copy Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology, the chapter on Warp 4 Cruiser USS Tritium, it had three nacelles and failed because of it.

Not many three shaft ships worked, so I'm wondering how they work on star ships?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:29 am 
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jemhouston wrote:
I dug out m copy Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology, the chapter on Warp 4 Cruiser USS Tritium, it had three nacelles and failed because of it.

Not many three shaft ships worked, so I'm wondering how they work on star ships?


Loads for Trek at least in SFB. All the Dreadnoughts are 3 nacelle; Klingon B and C series battleships/ heavy battlecruisers are; many Romulan modular cruisers are; Kzinti frigates are (actually I sometimes lose count of how many warp engines Kzinti ships have). Certainly 3- nacelle designs work.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:14 am 
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Johnnie Lyle wrote:
Huzzah! More!

And of course Klingon great houses have patches. They are the Dan Draper of advertising. What's the point of being a great warrior if nobody knows who you are?

Yup, got to build that brand up. ;)

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