History, Politics And Current Affairs

Hello and welcome to the TLW sub-forum.
Thanks for your comments, they are greatly appreciated. I can't take credit for all the ORBATS and side stories, many were written by others who have been extremely helpful in expanding the TLWverse.

Always happy to have a new fan, so thanks again.

Does anyone know what the UK 'designated survivor' plan is should the PM end up dead?

Not so much TLW, more OTL IRA mortar attack on No.10.

This was one of the other Yuckpoo questions, so might as well bring it up here: Which NATO members (and NATO-Allied) allow women in combat in some capacity? Based on RL, here's my take:

No restrictions:

Belgium
Canada
Denmark
Holland
Norway

Some restrictions (mainly no ground combat-though it's being bent in some situations, and outright ignored in others)

U.S. (Air and naval, but no Subs, though there are the "tank girls" with 40th ID in Kuwait, and female infantry in the Berlin Brigade)

U.K. (Same for U.S., with the female infantry in Berlin, and their own "tank girl.")

Australia: (Same for U.S., but they do allow females on submarines)

Israel: (Air and naval, no ground, but everyone knows how to fight if they have to)

Unknown:

France
Greece
Italy
Turkey
West Germany

I could see it in West Germany. Since we are indeed allowing it for a few years now in @, I can see it being allowed earlier in TLW.

I wonder if the USN would relax the prohibition on women in subs earlier in TLW. They are making that change now in RL.

Also, there are quite a number of Israeli females with tank experience who would be available if needed, because believe it or not the Israeli armor training force is largely female....

I'd forgotten about the Israeli female armor instructors. I do remember seeing some on the Military Channel's Greatest Ever episode that had tanks.

I also found that the French do allow female combat pilots in the French AF at least, though I'm not sure about the Aeronavale.

One thing that hasn't been touched on yet is how fast would various computer and console games based on the war would come out? You could see Call to Duty: Modern Warfare would be very different from OTL, and there would be others, like Battlefield 2, being quite different from what we know today. And there'd be RTS games as well. There's food for thought here.

Since the Soviets aren't broke and selling everything and the kitchen sink included in their arms sales, what would the Chinese and Indians look like in TLW?

For example, the Iranians have probably gone back to American suppliers and India still can access British and French gear. The Chinese will probably still have that EU Arms Embargo, but given how that turned into a joke already in OTL, they might be able to get technologies of various sorts. And the Israelis and South Africans are always selling things.

The Chinese are not something I've given a great deal of thought to.
The Indians, OTOH, have additional Mirage 2000s and are looking at either purchasing the Rafale, Typhoon, or Grippen as their next generation fighter. Their air force would like a mix of Typhoons and Grippens, and their navy would like either Rafales, or navalised Grippens.
You may also have noticed that the Indian Navy in TLW operates Merlin helicopters.

Iran is an interesting case, it's the place to go to see lots of F-4 Phantoms and F-14 Tomcats (the Iranians are very open to Western aviation enthusiasts) and of course their indigenous F-5 derivative. While they don't officially have links with America and Britain it is not uncommon to hear maintainers with American accents working on Phantoms and maintenance of Chieftain tanks being carried out by men with British accents.
Iran is considering an Phantom upgrade similar to the Turkish one; it would probably be supplied by the Turks, which means that slightly ironically it would indirectly come from Israel.

While the Soviets will not sell high end equipment to all but their closest allies (no Su-30s to India and Malaysia, for example) they will sell second hand equipment (e.g. Mig-23s, Mig-25s and Mig-27s) and simplified versions of current aircraft like the Mig-29.

Not to mention the strong possiblity that F-4s from AMARC wound up in Iran via third parties (Turkey, for example), along with some M-60 tanks, AH-1Js, and maybe, just maybe, a few low-time F-14As that were supposed to head to the boneyard.

The Indian Army would also get much more assistance from the UK/Germany when it comes to the Indian Arjun tank. With no Soviet tanks available in the market, the Indians would be able to press for more assistance from the UK and Germany. Since most parts for the Arjun have to be imported, some kind of licensing deal and/or cheaper price tags would do the Indians a world of good.

The Navy would have much more Western influences than OTL simply because there would be less Soviet assistance. No Soviet SSMs, SAMs and associated electronics. The Viraat replacement will not be made in USSR, that's a given. I'd say either an Italian Cavour or a Spanish Juan Carlos.

Hmm. That tank could be armed with the L55.

Interestingly the Arjun is/was the only new MBT other than the Chally 2 that had a rifled 120mm gun. Perhaps that's a case of continued British influence in the Indian Army?

In TLW it's likely that the Indians sent more than a few technical teams to Vickers to keep apprised of the Challenger program and chose the L30 over the German L44. As with most military programs politics might have played it's hand, since the Germans had a larger influence in the Arjun program.

I personally expect that the Chinese will resurrect and continue to try to keep on pushing aircraft programs like the Q-6 and H-8 that they gave up on in OTL during the 80s.

And most of their resources will go into maintaining the ground component of the PLA. I can see Merkavas or some derivative of arming the PLA, or maybe even a localized Leopard 2 (in the continuation of the Soviet menace, I doubt that the American and EU arms embargo against China is going to last. In OTL already, that embargo, at least at the EU end, is a ****ing joke already). The Chinese will have a lot more heavy artillery, as in the PLZ-05 and maybe even that 203mm/210mm heavy howitzer cannon. A lot of Israeli help for the HQ-9 is probably expected too. And they'll probably be spamming WZ-10 attack helicopters (maybe just use a coproduction of the Rooivalk).

I wonder what the Pakistanis are doing?

The H-8 was, as far as I know, cancelled in the early 80s, almost a decade before the PoD, so I don't see how/why the Chinese would revive that program. I'd say they'd concentrate on the Badger variants they designed, perhaps with Western engines or avionics.
As for the Q-6 I don't know enough about it so I won't make any assumptions.
On thing that the Chinese might get is the Phalcon aircraft from Israel. If the US doesn't keep the embargo too tight I can see that deal going through.



I'd say not rocking the boat but I can't be sure. Though what they'd fight with is more interesting. If the embargo caused by the nuclear testing in the late 80s still stands then I don't see the Pakistanis getting much help from the West. Perhaps they'll turn to China (as OTL) for the MBT-2000 tank. We might see a much more "westernized" Al-Khalid if the Chinese go with Merkava or Leopard. If the West loosens the embargo enough (or gets rid of it completely) the Air Force might get much more help, first by getting the F-16s ordered but held in the US and the Mirage force might get upgrades from Israel or South Africa.

I know we talked about China a while back, but I'm not sure if it was here or on the old Yuku forum. I seem to recall Jan saying that sometime in the early 1990s, probably after the 1992 US elections, the West decided that having China on-side against the USSR was a little more important than having the moral high ground. After some discussion, Jan seemed to agree that the following occurred equipment/hardware wise:
* Grumman was allowed to renew technical assistance on the Super 7 fighter project, which in OTL evolved into the FC-1. So that aircraft probably showed up earlier in TLWverse and with significant US content.
* Sikorsky was able to start selling S-70/UH-60 helicopters again to China. There were sales in the late 1980s in OTL with plans for more, but that ended after 1989.
* The PLA did get its hands on a western 120mm gun, but it was the French one.
* Complete western tanks were still not on the table.
* We never concluded what kind of further aviation assistance the west gave. We discussed the Mirage 2000, bu Jan nixed that idea. But I seem to recall reading something years back about Chinese interest in the M88 engine. I seem to recall the French offering India the Mirage 2000 production line in OTL, so the Mirage F1 line may offer some possibilities. Seeing as how the Tornado ADV was in production longer in TLWverse, I think it could be a possibility. I don't see why C-130s couldn't be a possibility, or possibly the A-400M.

With regards to Pakistan, I seem to recall Jan saying that the realities of the Cold War saw them get the rest of their F-16 order. I'd say they got ex-US Army M-60s at some point. Who knows what they got as far as new tanks. I did read once that part of India's reason for going with the 120mm gun for the Arjun was a concern that Pakistan would get US M1A1s at some point, though I don't know if that was ever a real possibility.

As far as the Leopard II, I'm not sure any of the countries being discussed here ever got even a monkey model. Notice how for competitions outside of NATO/close ally, the Leopard II isn't entered. I know in OTL that Saudi Arabia tried to buy Leopard IIs, and the West Germans declined.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the LeClerc did better in TLWverse with regard to export sales. With the T-90 off the table unless you are a close Soviet ally, India and Algeria seem like good candidates.

This actually came up on TankNet several years ago. The explanation given was that the Pakistani's have a bunker and earthwork system along the border for which the HESH round was deemed ideal to handle, hence the rifled gun.

How much of the moral high ground you claim depends on the state of the economy at the time..........

The JH-7 project would go forward with a Western engine as well (which was planned before the events of 1989), and there would be some PRC attempts at getting Western SAM systems-since in TLW they'd be denied the SA-10 and SA-15 (which they have OTL). Tank guns, ATGMs, and other systems are also likely. The PRC buying the C-130? Stranger things have happened.

The M-1A1 was certainly demonstrated to the Pakistanis: General Zia was killed in a C-130 crash on his way back from seeing a demo IIRC.