History, Politics And Current Affairs

Opinions expressed here are personal views of contributors and do not necessarily represent the companies, organizations or governments they work for. Nor do they necessarily represent those of the Board Administration.
It is currently Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:01 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 42 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:35 am
Posts: 5626
Location: Sweden
...because I'm overjoyed that our heavy mechanized battallions are getting new artillery. :D

The order was announced today for 40 self propelled twin tube 120 mm mortars mounted on CV90 chassis. Designated Grkpbv 90120.
One unit (with its twin tubes) replaces one single tube old school mortar(!), can you say firepower improvement. :D

The system is actually not the AMOS one as had been expected (and which was cancelled a few years ago) but rather something better if the people in the know are to be believed. They've hinted at a higher rate of fire and improved reloading compared to AMOS at least but no details.
We do know that it's a joint venture between Bofors and Hägglunds with delivery in 2019.

The AMOS, not the new system although it'll probably be visually similar:
Image

_________________
The Night Watch - A Star Trek Story


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:26 pm
Posts: 4052
Location: On the shores of Lake Armstrong
This thing looks like something out of a C&C game. *noises of approval*

_________________
“Ancient astronauts didn't build the pyramids. Human beings built the pyramids, because they're clever and they work hard.”

-Gene Roddenberry


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:47 pm
Posts: 3436
Location: Germany
Quote:
Designated Grkpbv 90120.


And they say we Germans are into abbreveations.

_________________
trekchu wrote:
It was worse than he had expected. It was so incomprehensibly bad that he'd rather watch Pearl Harbor on a constant, never-ending loop than...


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:25 pm
Posts: 958
It's only one letter more than PzMrs, even if the Swedish term is much longer than the German term when written out, and so much more in need of abbreviation (Granatkastarpansarbandvagn vs Panzermörser).

_________________
Best regards
Pengolodh
------------------------
Discovery Channel's rocket scientist:
"A rocket has to be versatile and cost-effective: it must be designed specifically for the task at hand."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:48 pm
Posts: 4263
Location: UK
In layman terms, what's the difference between these twin mortars and something like UK's old Abbot SPG etc ?

Is the 'twins' simply smooth-bored & short-ranged compared to the SPG ??

Or, due to the 'very high trajectory', doesn't need such a big spade, allowing it to 'empty the clip' then scoot 'toot-sweet' ?

Would this tech suit the 'loiter & top-kill' anti-armour warheads discussed else-where ?

_________________
'P for Pleistocene' A camp-out goes impossibly wrong...


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:35 am
Posts: 5626
Location: Sweden
Granatkastarpansarbandvagn it is.

Granatkastar(e) = mortar, or directly translated "grenade thrower"
Pansar = armor(ed)
Bandvagn = tracked vehicle or directly translated "band/track wagon"
So a grenade throwing armored tracked wagon if you will.
Isn't swedish lovely? :mrgreen:

Nik, I don't have any figures for this new model yet but the AMOS has the following:
Rate of fire: 16/12 rds/min (max/sustained), first 4 <8 sec, MRSI 2 × 8
Effective firing range: 6–10 km (ammo dependent)
Maximum firing range: 10 km (indirect fire), 150–1,550 m (direct fire)

Basically the answer to all your questions is yes.
It's able to keep the same pace as a fast moving armored formation, shoot and scoot, basically as a fully integrated component in a battallion. Very efficient, and very difficult to counter.
The plan is for eight of these per battallion so they'll be able to do a serious number on a target using the multiple rounds simultaneous impact capability.

And yes, there is a smart anti-armor top kill 120 mm mortar munition in service in Sweden called STRIX. It should be integrated into this system.
Older STRIX marketing video:

And an AMOS video:

_________________
The Night Watch - A Star Trek Story


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:35 am
Posts: 5626
Location: Sweden
Now an actual illustration has emerged, it doesn't look as similar to AMOS - with the barrels being depressed much further into vehicle - as people had been saying.
Though on the plus side Bofors is calling it Mjölner (Mjolnir, hammer of Thor) which is a nice touch.

Image

_________________
The Night Watch - A Star Trek Story


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:25 pm
Posts: 958
The BAe announcement names the system "Mjölnir" (the name of the hammer of the Norse god Thor), but the illustration shows something rather shortbarrelled. Makes me think of the early versions of the German WW2 Sturmgeschütz III.

Swedish seems to compound words together more than Norwegian does - your language has more German influences, I guess. I guess the direct translation into German would have been Granatenwerferpanzerkettenkraftfahrzeug?

_________________
Best regards
Pengolodh
------------------------
Discovery Channel's rocket scientist:
"A rocket has to be versatile and cost-effective: it must be designed specifically for the task at hand."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:35 am
Posts: 5626
Location: Sweden
pengolodh_sc wrote:
The BAe announcement names the system "Mjölnir" (the name of the hammer of the Norse god Thor), but the illustration shows something rather shortbarrelled. Makes me think of the early versions of the German WW2 Sturmgeschütz III.

Swedish seems to compound words together more than Norwegian does - your language has more German influences, I guess. I guess the direct translation into German would have been Granatenwerferpanzerkettenkraftfahrzeug?

Yes it appears that the barrels are probably about the same lenght as in AMOS but due to a different design they don't protrude as much.
Apparently this is a description of the functionality:
Image

Yeah I think that we have a lot of influence from medieval low german to thank for the word compounding tendency.

_________________
The Night Watch - A Star Trek Story


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:48 pm
Posts: 4263
Location: UK
So, it must level those paired barrels and be muzzle-loaded via a pop-up widget on the front deck ?

Explains the *short* barrels, and why there are two...

{ Steam-punk vision of brass robotic arm doing musket-loading drill for a pintle-mount volley-gun... ;) }

And, yes, why it is called a mortar / grenade launcher etc, rather than an SPG.

Still, if it takes those smart top-kill whatsits, the Russians would need all those refurbished Ts as bullet-catchers for their modern stuff...

_________________
'P for Pleistocene' A camp-out goes impossibly wrong...


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:35 am
Posts: 5626
Location: Sweden
I'm honestly not sure how this thing is supposed to work, to lower and reload via the muzzle would compromise the rate of fire, which doesn't jive with the claims of a higher rate than AMOS.
It may be sleep deprivation but I feel like I'm missing something...

_________________
The Night Watch - A Star Trek Story


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:37 pm
Posts: 7560
Location: BM-9, BB-30
Nik_SpeakerToCats wrote:
And, yes, why it is called a mortar / grenade launcher etc, rather than an SPG.


I vaguely remember this semantics issue being kicked around recently, but essentially it involves the trajectory of the projectile...

_________________
RLBH wrote:
I'm sorry, but I prefer to carpet-shark my enemies. Much more mayhem, though it must be admitted that the laser-guided shark is cheaper.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:35 am
Posts: 5626
Location: Sweden
Ahhhhh, someone found a photo of some prototype version from the 90's.
It looks like it has a sort of loading system that carries the round out through the hull and muzzle loads it.
Apparently the prototype had a firing rate of 18 rounds per minute. :shock:
Image

_________________
The Night Watch - A Star Trek Story


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:07 pm
Posts: 1596
Mortars can be breech loading, and in this case are, I'd guess. AMOS was, and looking at the ammo stowage that seems to be the case with this one. Mortars can also be rifled, just as canon and howitzers can be smooth bored - which end you feed them and the rate of turn on the projectile make no difference to the nomenclature. Canon = low angle, howitzer = medium angle, mortar = high angle, in this context. :D

shane

_________________
Actually, I know Foucault about postmodernism


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:20 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:55 am
Posts: 17824
Location: Chicagoland
I would have killed for something like that. And the mortar firing patrol boat looks like hell on the water.

_________________
- Dennis

Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory there is no survival."
-Sir Winston Churchill


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:35 am
Posts: 5626
Location: Sweden
After plowing through the sketchy explanations people have offered up online I'm confident that Mjölner is muzzle loading.
A human loader grab rounds and place them in the two rails depicted in the above prototype photo, a loading system then carries the rounds up towards the muzzle and then inserts them.
This is what allows for the higher rate of fire, the breech takes longer to open, load and close.

I can report that everyone who's had a chance to get a closer look at the system are very pleased.
Compared to AMOS the pros are a higher rate of fire, more storage for rounds and much cheaper cost which allows for more units given the available funds.
The cons are no firing on the move and no MRSI, at least initially. But the overall consensus is that it will be a better indirect fire platform.

Dennis, that boat mortar platform was found to be working but there was a desire for a bit bigger boat so as to be more stable when firing.
So this was devised, but unfortunately later cancelled.
Image

The Finns have however brought a single barrel variant called NEMO in service on a boat, quite interesting:


This type of systems opens up for new riverine combat tactics. Imagine these on the Vietnamese rivers back in the day.

_________________
The Night Watch - A Star Trek Story


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:48 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:55 am
Posts: 17824
Location: Chicagoland
I'd love one of those as a bass boat!

_________________
- Dennis

Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory there is no survival."
-Sir Winston Churchill


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:45 am
Posts: 5149
Location: EGUD
edgeplay_cgo wrote:
I'd love one of those as a bass boat!

I thought shooting fish was only legal in Vermont?

_________________
War is less costly than servitude. In the end, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau. - Jean Dutourd


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:35 am
Posts: 5626
Location: Sweden
pdf27 wrote:
edgeplay_cgo wrote:
I'd love one of those as a bass boat!

I thought shooting fish was only legal in Vermont?

He's thinking of when he gets into arguments with other fishers about who's got dibs on the best spots.
"Hang on a sec, I need to work out my targeting solution..."

_________________
The Night Watch - A Star Trek Story


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:53 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 5746
My understanding of the difference between mortar and small howitzer is in the propellant location and muzzle velocity.

The mortar has a loose or soft propellant that is attached to the base of the actual shell. Also, the velocity is sub-sonic and the shells generally need fins for stability.

A howitzer has a propellant charge in a brass, zinc, or steel case that is loaded with the shell or separately, or in silk bags for the really big guns. The case is left behind on firing, and the velocity is Mach 2 or better.

Breechloading or not doesn't matter to a mortar description. It's just easier on the smaller mortars to drop it down the muzzle. For a vehicle mounted mortar, I can see a breechloading type, with two chambers, one under the barrel and the other being loaded with a new shell. After firing, the chambers are rotated to exchange places.

_________________
(English doesn't) just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.--James D. Nicoll


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 42 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Poohbah and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group