History, Politics And Current Affairs

Opinions expressed here are personal views of contributors and do not necessarily represent the companies, organizations or governments they work for. Nor do they necessarily represent those of the Board Administration.
It is currently Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:09 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 586 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:50 pm 
Online

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:38 pm
Posts: 2347
Thanks for your contribution, Micael. I forgot to mention the bridge simulator in our Naval Academy. It is used in the Basic Officer's Course and extensively used in the OOD course.

_________________
A Missouri man had once written the Confederate[s] that all they had to do to get rid of the St. Louis Unionists was to destroy the breweries and seize all the beer: 'By this, the Dutch will all die in a week and the Yankees will then run from this state.'


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:49 pm
Posts: 10713
The_Enemy wrote:
Don't we already have the USCGC Eagle as a sail training ship? Coast Guard, sure, but we could probably stick Navy folk on it if there is enough room for extra students.

If we look around the world's fleets, quite a few navies have invested in sailing ships of various descriptions over the last decade. At a time when budgets are under a lot of pressure, I think that tells us something. There's even word from the herd that China may be interested in a tall ship.

_________________
Nations do not survive by setting examples for others.
Nations survive by making examples of others


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:01 pm
Posts: 277
We have a tall ship in the US Navy. Might as well put her back to work. ;)

...how far could you go in modernizing Constitution? I have a sudden image of her firing on Somali pirates off the Horn of Africa, as in that Victorian ironclad idea.

_________________
“It’s no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense.”
- Mark Twain


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:45 am
Posts: 5108
Location: EGUD
Francis Urquhart wrote:
If we look around the world's fleets, quite a few navies have invested in sailing ships of various descriptions over the last decade. At a time when budgets are under a lot of pressure, I think that tells us something. There's even word from the herd that China may be interested in a tall ship.

I think we need to be a little careful here - there is an awful lot of romanticism tied up in tall ships, and with it the risk that people will use the teaching of seamanship as a justification for the purchase and running of a sailing vessel whether or not it is actually a cost-effective way of teaching seamanship. Most of the requirements, for instance, could be taught just as effectively on board a modern large yacht as they could on a tall ship, and a tall ship can teach very little about many of the actual skills needed by naval officers during their careers which can't be done in other ways more cheaply and effectively.

_________________
War is less costly than servitude. In the end, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau. - Jean Dutourd


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:49 pm
Posts: 10713
pdf27 wrote:
I think we need to be a little careful here - there is an awful lot of romanticism tied up in tall ships, and with it the risk that people will use the teaching of seamanship as a justification for the purchase and running of a sailing vessel whether or not it is actually a cost-effective way of teaching seamanship. Most of the requirements, for instance, could be taught just as effectively on board a modern large yacht as they could on a tall ship, and a tall ship can teach very little about many of the actual skills needed by naval officers during their careers which can't be done in other ways more cheaply and effectively.

Tall ships are marvelous public relations instruments; they attract a lot of attention and people visit them so they give a favorable impression. Most of the recent purchases of sailing ships have been of the large yacht type since they are more economical and safer to work.

We couldn't use Constitution, the danger of running her aground is too high.

_________________
Nations do not survive by setting examples for others.
Nations survive by making examples of others


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:41 am
Posts: 6269
Location: Cambs, UK
The answer to that is simple Stuart. Build a new one. Just think of the green credentials the USN could score...

_________________
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Bernard, Ministers should never know more than they need to. Then they can't tell anyone. Like secret agents, they could be captured, tortured.
Bernard Woolley: You mean by terrorists?
Sir Humphrey Appleby: By the BBC, Bernard.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:13 pm
Posts: 14227
Location: PCE(R)-857
Back in '99, the Naval Academy had a fleet of YPs and 44' sailboats they used to train the mids. What happened to them?

_________________
Shepard: "What kind of weapons does this thing have?"
Liara T'Soni: "It's a taxi; it has a fare meter!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:48 am
Posts: 7212
Location: BB-61 (the ship, not the state)
Craiglxviii wrote:
ByronC wrote:
edgeplay_cgo wrote:

It looks different from the driver's seat. Hell, you can even rehearse the attack. It's kinda like using simulators to train real ship and aircraft pilots. All this presumes that the streetscape is sufficiently accurate, and the vehicle model acts sufficiently like the actual one. I have no idea what the answer is to that, and don't expect anyone to tell me.

Fantastically unlikely. Even the best commercial racing simulators are apparently not that accurate on the tracks, and I can't see why GTA is going to be better given that I think it's in a fictional city. I'd suspect that cars in most games are equally bad, although again the Grand Turismo-style games might be OK.

Re Millennials, I'm sort of tired of people attacking the young. It's been going on since the dawn of time. I'm sure the generation that fought WW2 was being decried as soft and entitled in 1938. The boomers definitely were. Also, please come up with a coherent definition of millenials. Or don't, because it can't be done. At this point, it's just a name for 'young people I don't like'.


You're joking, right? Domestic (as in home, not commercial as in for industry) racing simulators are millimetre- perfect for racetracks. I was watching one very well known game-makers scanning Silverstone again just the other day.

I checked at work, certainly the 3D environments we use to build lifelike renders of various cars in various cityscapes are millimetre- perfect (they have to be); the guy who flies that particular job showed me (something like- I forget the exact name) GTA and we compared screen on screen down the same street in sandbox mode. Identical near as makes no difference.

Uhh...
No, I'm not joking, although I may have misunderstood my source (the time Clarkson did Laguna Seca in a simulator, and then ran it in the car.) Even the best games are not perfect. GTA in particular is not a car simulator, and I strongly suspect that "I can do this in GTA" is not correlated with "I can do this IRL". Also, it's not set in the real world. It's in a fictional version of one of three major cities, none of which is modeled exactly. They explicitly condensed LA for the latest one, according to Wiki. There may be one or two places where it does match reality exactly, but they are few and far between. Seriously, where is this location you're talking about?

_________________
Intelligence can be identified by its rejection of self-deception; by its willingness to admit that it might be wrong; by its insistence upon evidence rather than mere impression; by reasoning that cannot easily be assailed. - Orson Scott Card


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:01 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:02 pm
Posts: 2616
You're also wrong, at least about the racing simulators. The tracks in those simulators are extremely faithful to real life. They are a limited environment and are modelled in great detail. You obviously don't get things like the G forces with them, but simulators can and indeed have been used for track learning by drivers.

GTA is a whole different kettle of fish. It is not a simulator, and is not marketed as one. Anyone who thinks it is a simulator is a prat.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:56 pm
Posts: 3259
Location: Kingdom of Gammaraybia
Johnnie Lyle wrote:
Back in '99, the Naval Academy had a fleet of YPs and 44' sailboats they used to train the mids. What happened to them?

The sailing program at USNA is quite active, but it's for those mishipmen who are interested in it. The Academy has at least three Navy 44's, maybe more, which are built by Pearson to a higher standard than most racing yachts with thicker FRP layups and using more robust, heavier duty hardware. Each of these 44' boats sails possibly 250 days a year. The sailing program also has at least eight other larger racing yachts of various sizes and designs that have been donated to their program, plus some number of smaller 25-footers of fairly modern design.

_________________
An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:13 pm
Posts: 14227
Location: PCE(R)-857
Scott Brim wrote:
Johnnie Lyle wrote:
Back in '99, the Naval Academy had a fleet of YPs and 44' sailboats they used to train the mids. What happened to them?

The sailing program at USNA is quite active, but it's for those mishipmen who are interested in it. The Academy has at least three Navy 44's, maybe more, which are built by Pearson to a higher standard than most racing yachts with thicker FRP layups and using more robust, heavier duty hardware. Each of these 44' boats sails possibly 250 days a year. The sailing program also has at least eight other larger racing yachts of various sizes and designs that have been donated to their program, plus some number of smaller 25-footers of fairly modern design.

That's another easy fix. Make it a requirement for all mids not going Marine.

_________________
Shepard: "What kind of weapons does this thing have?"
Liara T'Soni: "It's a taxi; it has a fare meter!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:35 am
Posts: 5458
Location: Sweden
Francis Urquhart wrote:
pdf27 wrote:
I think we need to be a little careful here - there is an awful lot of romanticism tied up in tall ships, and with it the risk that people will use the teaching of seamanship as a justification for the purchase and running of a sailing vessel whether or not it is actually a cost-effective way of teaching seamanship. Most of the requirements, for instance, could be taught just as effectively on board a modern large yacht as they could on a tall ship, and a tall ship can teach very little about many of the actual skills needed by naval officers during their careers which can't be done in other ways more cheaply and effectively.

Tall ships are marvelous public relations instruments; they attract a lot of attention and people visit them so they give a favorable impression. Most of the recent purchases of sailing ships have been of the large yacht type since they are more economical and safer to work.

We couldn't use Constitution, the danger of running her aground is too high.

Which is basically why the Swedish navy replaced the fullrigger training ships with two new schooners in the 1940's. Designed to be cheaper to operate, give a challenging sailing experience while still being safe but also to be fast and able to race.

Gladan and Falken have done a marvellous job ever since,
Image
Image

_________________
The Night Watch - A Star Trek Story


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 10:18 am
Posts: 6899
Location: Where the grass is green and the girls are pretty
Johnnie Lyle wrote:
Scott Brim wrote:
Johnnie Lyle wrote:
Back in '99, the Naval Academy had a fleet of YPs and 44' sailboats they used to train the mids. What happened to them?

The sailing program at USNA is quite active, but it's for those mishipmen who are interested in it. The Academy has at least three Navy 44's, maybe more, which are built by Pearson to a higher standard than most racing yachts with thicker FRP layups and using more robust, heavier duty hardware. Each of these 44' boats sails possibly 250 days a year. The sailing program also has at least eight other larger racing yachts of various sizes and designs that have been donated to their program, plus some number of smaller 25-footers of fairly modern design.

That's another easy fix. Make it a requirement for all mids not going Marine.


Heck, require it of all mids period.

_________________
"The double tap is a myth. Shoot the threat until it goes away. Only then will his soul find peace." -- Dalai Lama


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 10:18 am
Posts: 6899
Location: Where the grass is green and the girls are pretty
And the Duffel Blog has weighed in

Navy destroyer collides with building in downtown Houston

_________________
"The double tap is a myth. Shoot the threat until it goes away. Only then will his soul find peace." -- Dalai Lama


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:13 pm
Posts: 14227
Location: PCE(R)-857
Poohbah wrote:
Johnnie Lyle wrote:
Scott Brim wrote:
The sailing program at USNA is quite active, but it's for those mishipmen who are interested in it. The Academy has at least three Navy 44's, maybe more, which are built by Pearson to a higher standard than most racing yachts with thicker FRP layups and using more robust, heavier duty hardware. Each of these 44' boats sails possibly 250 days a year. The sailing program also has at least eight other larger racing yachts of various sizes and designs that have been donated to their program, plus some number of smaller 25-footers of fairly modern design.

That's another easy fix. Make it a requirement for all mids not going Marine.


Heck, require it of all mids period.


Depends on whether it would take time at the helm and as OiTOD away from the youngins who'll be driving ships somepoint in their career.

_________________
Shepard: "What kind of weapons does this thing have?"
Liara T'Soni: "It's a taxi; it has a fare meter!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:48 pm 
Online

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:38 pm
Posts: 2347
pdf27 wrote:
Francis Urquhart wrote:
If we look around the world's fleets, quite a few navies have invested in sailing ships of various descriptions over the last decade. At a time when budgets are under a lot of pressure, I think that tells us something. There's even word from the herd that China may be interested in a tall ship.

I think we need to be a little careful here - there is an awful lot of romanticism tied up in tall ships, and with it the risk that people will use the teaching of seamanship as a justification for the purchase and running of a sailing vessel whether or not it is actually a cost-effective way of teaching seamanship. Most of the requirements, for instance, could be taught just as effectively on board a modern large yacht as they could on a tall ship, and a tall ship can teach very little about many of the actual skills needed by naval officers during their careers which can't be done in other ways more cheaply and effectively.


Really? You are counting pennies in conjunction with THE highest defence budget in the world? I also see the old pro-technology bias creeping into the argument. Let me tell you, the more tech there is between you and the sea, the smaller the learning effect.

The German sail training ship, the Gorch Fock, is called "Germany's Ambassador in White". The PR effect of tall ships is something that cannot be underestimated. And from a personal perspective, it is something special, experiencing the elements directly on one of these ships. It is a priceless lesson in humility because you realize how insignificant you are in the grand scheme of things.
It is indeed telling that GoFo is right now comprehensively overhauled despite the still precarious budget situation and the German navy cadets being trained on the Romanian Mircea, her sister ship. From a cost perspective, it would be easy for the USN to build three or four Eagle copies (another sister ship of Gorch Fock, btw.) and let the middies learn the ropes (literally and figuratively) in relays at the beginning of their USNA time, right after boot camp or whatever it is they call it there...thing is, to train three or four crews and make sure there is adequate personnel throughput for the future would take a lot of time.

_________________
A Missouri man had once written the Confederate[s] that all they had to do to get rid of the St. Louis Unionists was to destroy the breweries and seize all the beer: 'By this, the Dutch will all die in a week and the Yankees will then run from this state.'


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:49 pm
Posts: 10713
Jotun wrote:
The German sail training ship, the Gorch Fock, is called "Germany's Ambassador in White". The PR effect of tall ships is something that cannot be underestimated. And from a personal perspective, it is something special, experiencing the elements directly on one of these ships. It is a priceless lesson in humility because you realize how insignificant you are in the grand scheme of things.
It is indeed telling that GoFo is right now comprehensively overhauled despite the still precarious budget situation and the German navy cadets being trained on the Romanian Mircea, her sister ship. From a cost perspective, it would be easy for the USN to build three or four Eagle copies (another sister ship of Gorch Fock, btw.) and let the middies learn the ropes (literally and figuratively) in relays at the beginning of their USNA time, right after boot camp or whatever it is they call it there...thing is, to train three or four crews and make sure there is adequate personnel throughput for the future would take a lot of time.

Well said Sir! I shall raise a glass to you forthwith. Of my oldest and rarest single malt.

_________________
Nations do not survive by setting examples for others.
Nations survive by making examples of others


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:22 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:28 am
Posts: 5284
Location: CL-4, BB-14
It would take several years to procure a sail training ship so there would be time to train a cadre to operate her - we can use Eagle for that purpose (and the Senior Chief gets recalled to active duty...). We'd probably need several to do it right; the USNA commissioned 768 ensigns in 2017 and there were something like 2,500 more from other sources. The USCGA only commissioned 181 ensigns this year.

_________________
"If it's not the end of the world, I'm not coming!" - Kelsie at the SAC Museum

Inner Columnist


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:55 am
Posts: 4698
Location: D88 by night, D20 by day
Jotun wrote:
pdf27 wrote:
Francis Urquhart wrote:
If we look around the world's fleets, quite a few navies have invested in sailing ships of various descriptions over the last decade. At a time when budgets are under a lot of pressure, I think that tells us something. There's even word from the herd that China may be interested in a tall ship.

I think we need to be a little careful here - there is an awful lot of romanticism tied up in tall ships, and with it the risk that people will use the teaching of seamanship as a justification for the purchase and running of a sailing vessel whether or not it is actually a cost-effective way of teaching seamanship. Most of the requirements, for instance, could be taught just as effectively on board a modern large yacht as they could on a tall ship, and a tall ship can teach very little about many of the actual skills needed by naval officers during their careers which can't be done in other ways more cheaply and effectively.


Really? You are counting pennies in conjunction with THE highest defence budget in the world? I also see the old pro-technology bias creeping into the argument. Let me tell you, the more tech there is between you and the sea, the smaller the learning effect.

I'm with pdf27 here, at least in part - tall ships are undeniably romantic and excellent PR tools, and as long as one is honest about that being the reasons for procuring one (or a squadron) then go ahead.

For seamanship training, though, what's important is getting midshipmen to sea, with the bare minimum to lean on other than their own training. To my mind that means smaller vessels are better. Big enough to accommodate a realistic number of midshipmen and the requisite training detachment, but no larger. There's certainly an argument in favour of these training ships being sail powered, because it forces the midshipmen to understand the interaction of wind and sea, but it's by no means essential.

The Royal Navy has passionately hated sail training since the 1920s because it requires maintaining an institutional knowledge of handling vessels under sail that is completely and utterly irrelevant to any warship in service. British seamanship training is instead done on what are essentially small motor yachts.

Image

If one is committed to sail training, then something like the Swedish schooners would seem more suitable to me. Smaller ships mean that everyone has more to do, and the ships can go more places, both of which are beneficial for training. Going the route of tall ships, based on USCG practice with EAGLE, you'd be looking at about 260 ship-weeks at sea each year, assuming 3,268 cadets/year per Theodore's figures and 12 weeks of sail training for all cadets. That means a squadron of about eight GORCH FOCK equivalents, or a larger number of smaller ships.

_________________
If the BBC told me that it was dark outside at two o'clock in the morning on a stormy day in December, I would feel obliged to check their facts.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:20 am 
Online

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:38 pm
Posts: 2347
Germany trains about 220 officer candidates per year, if I am not mistaken. The Gorch Fock usually takes one four-month training cruise with the 220 trainees divided into two groups, exchanging after eight weeks, somewhere abroad. So for the USNA alone, we'd need four ships. The rest of the year (eight months) would be available to train other prospective OODs from ROTC, repairs, overhauls and an opportunity for the crews to go on leave. With a theoretical eight to ten months of sailing time, those four ships would be able to train 1,600 middies. Taking into account one of those ships being laid up for repairs etc. any given year, we are at a more realistic 1,200. Which is a lot.

Sailing lessons and handling small motorboats during the complete time at the USNA should also be part of the syllabus, IMO, with navigation and seamanship beig taught throughout, getting progressively more complex. In the navy, you are a sailor first and foremost. Experience with all the tech comes second.

_________________
A Missouri man had once written the Confederate[s] that all they had to do to get rid of the St. Louis Unionists was to destroy the breweries and seize all the beer: 'By this, the Dutch will all die in a week and the Yankees will then run from this state.'


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 586 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Jotun and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group