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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:28 am 
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Just to add my 2 cents to the training ship discussion.
NRP Sagres (another of the popular Gorch Fock class), has a single six/seven month training voyage spread over 3 parts:
One half of the 2nd year cadets takes the southbound trip to Brazil. The other half does the northbound leg up to Lisbon.
There it changes crew again, embarking the 1st year cadets and going north to Le Havre or Portsmouth before coming back to Lisbon.

While the Sagres is away, the Creoula (a four mast lugger), takes the 1st year cadets on short trips between the mainland and the Azores or Madeira islands.

On the 3rd and 4th years at the Naval School, the cadets are gradually placed on training tours on the corvettes along the coast and mid-Atlantic.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:37 am 
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David Newton wrote:
You're also wrong, at least about the racing simulators. The tracks in those simulators are extremely faithful to real life. They are a limited environment and are modelled in great detail. You obviously don't get things like the G forces with them, but simulators can and indeed have been used for track learning by drivers.

GTA is a whole different kettle of fish. It is not a simulator, and is not marketed as one. Anyone who thinks it is a simulator is a prat.

I think I originally misinterpreted something, and you're right about the level of detail in racing simulators. That said, I'll stand by the position that even if you are training for a terrorist attack at a racetrack, if you are not a racing driver you are unlikely to get the results you expect out of it. (Unless you're just doing a fit check, but that's unlikely.) Learning which way the turns go is one thing, but F1 teams have simulators that are at least as good if not better than the commercial products, and they spend lots of time doing things like walking the track, as well as doing laps in practice.
Also, who plans a terrorist attack at a racetrack using cars?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:47 am 
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It doesn't matter about the fidelity of the physical model of the racetrack. There are variations in the pavement due to the asphalt laydown process that cause irregularities and waves in the finished surface on the order of millimeters to meters horizontally and 5 +/- mm vertically. These will change with every patch and every resurfacing.

The bigger issue is the physics model. The nature of the paving-tire interaction is that there will not be a constant coefficient of friction. It will vary with the texture depth, amount of asphalt in the paving, and how the asphalt ages with the sun and atmosphere exposure. Plus the tire wear. In order to model it successfully, the system would need to use a stochastic approach to many of the variables, plus a full motion simulator chair with both tilt/roll and jerkiness. As a guess, such a system would be a minimum of $5K to $10k.

And on a racing track, the pavement can be extensively measured and modeled. City streets are particularly nasty, because much less care is taken with surface irregularities and many patches are haphazard and failing.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:14 pm 
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KDahm wrote:
It doesn't matter about the fidelity of the physical model of the racetrack. There are variations in the pavement due to the asphalt laydown process that cause irregularities and waves in the finished surface on the order of millimeters to meters horizontally and 5 +/- mm vertically. These will change with every patch and every resurfacing.

The bigger issue is the physics model. The nature of the paving-tire interaction is that there will not be a constant coefficient of friction. It will vary with the texture depth, amount of asphalt in the paving, and how the asphalt ages with the sun and atmosphere exposure. Plus the tire wear. In order to model it successfully, the system would need to use a stochastic approach to many of the variables, plus a full motion simulator chair with both tilt/roll and jerkiness. As a guess, such a system would be a minimum of $5K to $10k.

And on a racing track, the pavement can be extensively measured and modeled. City streets are particularly nasty, because much less care is taken with surface irregularities and many patches are haphazard and failing.


Don't forget weather. One of my son's favorite pastimes is going to the track with his Miata on rainy days and "making fools of the yuppies in their Porches."

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:02 am 
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Ionic wrote:
Ionic wrote:
There's a new article on USNI than makes for interesting reading:

https://m.usni.org/magazines/proceeding ... oot-causes

Part 2 is now available

https://m.usni.org/magazines/proceeding ... ns-part-ii—operational-pause

Not had chance to read it yet - just about to pour myself a coffee and sit down.

Edit - can't get the link to work, but if you go to the bottom of the original article there's a link there.

And Part 3 is up (I hope that the link works this time):


https://m.usni.org/magazines/proceeding ... aintenance


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:06 pm 
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Ionic wrote:
Ionic wrote:
Ionic wrote:
There's a new article on USNI than makes for interesting reading:

https://m.usni.org/magazines/proceeding ... oot-causes

Part 2 is now available

https://m.usni.org/magazines/proceeding ... ns-part-ii—operational-pause

Not had chance to read it yet - just about to pour myself a coffee and sit down.

Edit - can't get the link to work, but if you go to the bottom of the original article there's a link there.

And Part 3 is up (I hope that the link works this time):


https://m.usni.org/magazines/proceeding ... aintenance


The Really Big Something Ugly is becoming more and more evident. This is a generational culture problem and it is a MUCH DIFFERENT culture than what I remember (left sea duty in 91, (staff puke embarked in two surface ships)).

I now offer further evidence of a corrupted culture which I have so far refrained from pointing out, but I think it bears on this degradation of professionalism and is definitely part of The Problem as I see this.

The corruption trials of senior officers and Fat Leonard. Civilian criminal trials and now Courts Martial up through senior and flag officers involved in corruption and compromise of classified material for personal enrichment and favors.

What does that have to do with the loss of training and professionalism? its all part of the same degradation of the culture of accountability, professionalism and integrity that runs from top to bottom and back up.

It is not all of the officer corps by any stretch of the imagination. My sons are as appalled as I am. None of whom are in the surface warfare community, and neither was I. But all of this is symptomatic of a much, much larger problem and central to it all is a loss of integrity and professionalism that has allowed professional standards and training to degrade to what is now a crisis level. Just how pervasive this goes is now the big question in my mind.

I think we may have a much larger problem in the USN than we are aware of. And that scares the Absolute $h!t out of me!!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:44 pm 
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Nightwatch2 wrote:
Ionic wrote:
And Part 3 is up (I hope that the link works this time):

https://m.usni.org/magazines/proceeding ... aintenance


The Really Big Something Ugly is becoming more and more evident. This is a generational culture problem and it is a MUCH DIFFERENT culture than what I remember (left sea duty in 91, (staff puke embarked in two surface ships)).

I now offer further evidence of a corrupted culture which I have so far refrained from pointing out, but I think it bears on this degradation of professionalism and is definitely part of The Problem as I see this.

The corruption trials of senior officers and Fat Leonard. Civilian criminal trials and now Courts Martial up through senior and flag officers involved in corruption and compromise of classified material for personal enrichment and favors.

What does that have to do with the loss of training and professionalism? its all part of the same degradation of the culture of accountability, professionalism and integrity that runs from top to bottom and back up.

It is not all of the officer corps by any stretch of the imagination. My sons are as appalled as I am. None of whom are in the surface warfare community, and neither was I. But all of this is symptomatic of a much, much larger problem and central to it all is a loss of integrity and professionalism that has allowed professional standards and training to degrade to what is now a crisis level. Just how pervasive this goes is now the big question in my mind.

I think we may have a much larger problem in the USN than we are aware of. And that scares the Absolute $h!t out of me!!


Your not only one scared sh!tless shipmate. This bears out the very worst of my fears. This reminds me so much of the post Nam fleet (with the exception of rampant drug abuse).

IMO, social engineering is doing more damage than drug abuse ever did in the '70s. Why was there not a hue and cry over these disastrous decisions? I'll tell you why, No One up the line wanted to rock the boat. Their mother humping careers were dependent on doing whatever was the latest social engineering insanity from our civilian masters. Instead of living up to their oaths they remained silent. A bunch of careerist cowards, ISA COWARDS, more than willing to push the social engineering policies that advanced people who had no right even wearing the uniform let alone being in positions of trust.

Yah I hear they were starved for funds. Really starved or choosing to gut real warfighting schools and training to free up funds for the social engineering insanity.

If anything part 3 is more disheartening than Part 1 was.

NW2 knows about my neighbor. She has every right to be absolutely PO'd at me. Her son is at great risk and I should have known better just how bad things were getting and I refused to believe it.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:56 pm 
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OSCSSW wrote:
Nightwatch2 wrote:
Ionic wrote:
And Part 3 is up (I hope that the link works this time):

https://m.usni.org/magazines/proceeding ... aintenance


The Really Big Something Ugly is becoming more and more evident. This is a generational culture problem and it is a MUCH DIFFERENT culture than what I remember (left sea duty in 91, (staff puke embarked in two surface ships)).

I now offer further evidence of a corrupted culture which I have so far refrained from pointing out, but I think it bears on this degradation of professionalism and is definitely part of The Problem as I see this.

The corruption trials of senior officers and Fat Leonard. Civilian criminal trials and now Courts Martial up through senior and flag officers involved in corruption and compromise of classified material for personal enrichment and favors.

What does that have to do with the loss of training and professionalism? its all part of the same degradation of the culture of accountability, professionalism and integrity that runs from top to bottom and back up.

It is not all of the officer corps by any stretch of the imagination. My sons are as appalled as I am. None of whom are in the surface warfare community, and neither was I. But all of this is symptomatic of a much, much larger problem and central to it all is a loss of integrity and professionalism that has allowed professional standards and training to degrade to what is now a crisis level. Just how pervasive this goes is now the big question in my mind.

I think we may have a much larger problem in the USN than we are aware of. And that scares the Absolute $h!t out of me!!


Your not only one scared sh!tless shipmate. This bears out the very worst of my fears. This reminds me so much of the post Nam fleet (with the exception of rampant drug abuse).

IMO, social engineering is doing more damage than drug abuse ever did in the '70s. Why was there not a hue and cry over these disastrous decisions? I'll tell you why, No One up the line wanted to rock the boat. Their mother humping careers were dependent on doing whatever was the latest social engineering insanity from our civilian masters. Instead of living up to their oaths they remained silent. A bunch of careerist cowards, ISA COWARDS, more than willing to push the social engineering policies that advanced people who had no right even wearing the uniform let alone being in positions of trust.

Yah I hear they were starved for funds. Really starved or choosing to gut real warfighting schools and training to free up funds for the social engineering insanity.

If anything part 3 is more disheartening than Part 1 was.

NW2 knows about my neighbor. She has every right to be absolutely PO'd at me. Her son is at great risk and I should have known better just how bad things were getting and I refused to believe it.

It may not necessarily be social engineering (or other stuff) as much as complacency and a SWO situation that thinks everything is hunky dory and shiphandling is easy.

I suspect the most interesting bits of info will be what each ship recieved re causes and remedies after each incident, when they received it, and what said COs and XOs did with said info.

I also suspect that will be the REALLY scary part - a SWO branch that has a broken or non-existent mechanism to identify and address defects, and disseminate info for action.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:01 pm 
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Question: what is this "social engineering" money being spent on? None of the examples I've heard of sound all that expensive in the grand scheme of things (300,000 or so personnel and a $160Bn budget if I'm reading the numbers correctly - $500k per head could keep every "diversity" activist in the USA busy and still leave money left over).

My suspicion is that the budget cuts come from the same place that the RN cuts come from: to pay for Iraq and Afghanistan. That fits with when the cuts to the surface warfare schools started (under GWB) and accounts for one hell of a lot more total money and more importantly high-level (flag-level) attention than diversity programmes ever will.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:08 pm 
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An additional question would be what the state of the US Navy's warfighting capability given all these apparant problems?
More to the point can't the assessments by the brass as to what that capability is be trusted?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:18 pm 
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I added this reply to the thread below on the Swedish Skeppsgossekåren and thought it also relevant to this thread, for those that missed it.
Quote:
You are quite right. There's simply a feel for the water and wind that you get from a sail boat that is lacking in a motorboat.

I dare say that any Navy Ensign should spend at least a week learning how to sail in a small boat, something like a (470. Preferably two weeks to a month, either in a chunk for 90 day wonders or over a semester at the Canoe Club. They should then spend at least a week on a catamaran, something like the Formula 18 or the Nacra 17.

By getting close to the water, and moving at the slower sailing speeds, there is simply a feel for the wind and water. The catamarans require much faster thinking, multitasking, and go much faster than the 470s. Also, by putting boats in relatively close proximity, the ensigns can start to recognize relative motion by eye.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:42 pm 
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In previous discussions, mostly on Warships1, I've seen it said that the USN surface warfare officer community has a rather poisonous culture. Officers who don't like getting negative feedback from their subordinates and who treat them as inferiors. If no one dares to rock the boat and if systemic problems are treated like unrelated individual failings, then not much will change.

Mind you, we don't seem to be hearing many similar stories about the aviation and submarine communities. Different cultures or just lack of analysis and reporting? Is the naval air accident rate similar to the USAF and other air forces (taking the unique challenges of carrier aviation into account)?

The submarine accidents I've heard of* seem to be consequences of submerged operation rather than bad seamanship. Is that right?

* A sub surfacing into a Japanese boat while showing off to VIPs and a collision with a seamount are the two that come to mind.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:20 pm 
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DaveAAA wrote:
* A sub surfacing into a Japanese boat while showing off to VIPs and a collision with a seamount are the two that come to mind.

Both were the result of not following the actual procedures, rather than not recognizing the situation. The difference between speeding to get somewhere and not recognizing that a red light means stop. The Sub community took the lessons learned to heart, rather than ignoring them.

*Yes, I know there were a multiplicity of charts available, the older of which did not show the seamount. They didn't order or download the most current charts for their area of operations.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:05 pm 
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DaveAAA wrote:
In previous discussions, mostly on Warships1, I've seen it said that the USN surface warfare officer community has a rather poisonous culture. Officers who don't like getting negative feedback from their subordinates and who treat them as inferiors. If no one dares to rock the boat and if systemic problems are treated like unrelated individual failings, then not much will change.

Mind you, we don't seem to be hearing many similar stories about the aviation and submarine communities. Different cultures or just lack of analysis and reporting? Is the naval air accident rate similar to the USAF and other air forces (taking the unique challenges of carrier aviation into account)?

The submarine accidents I've heard of* seem to be consequences of submerged operation rather than bad seamanship. Is that right?

* A sub surfacing into a Japanese boat while showing off to VIPs and a collision with a seamount are the two that come to mind.

Nightwatch can give us first hand info, but all the current and ex- naval aviators at Neptunus Lex had a very respectful attitude about the risks of naval aviation: the air is a heartless, unforgiving, cast iron murderess. They make it look easy and safe, but it ain't. Very few carriers come home with everybody alive and in one piece. That prevents the kind of complacency and disrespect of the dangers we see with the SWO approach to seamanship.

I bet the Senior Chief a decent single malt we're going to find the root cause of the Navy's seamanship deficiency is forgetting that the sea is also a heartless, unforgiving, jealous, cast iron murderess.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:54 pm 
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Johnnie Lyle wrote:
DaveAAA wrote:
In previous discussions, mostly on Warships1, I've seen it said that the USN surface warfare officer community has a rather poisonous culture. Officers who don't like getting negative feedback from their subordinates and who treat them as inferiors. If no one dares to rock the boat and if systemic problems are treated like unrelated individual failings, then not much will change.

Mind you, we don't seem to be hearing many similar stories about the aviation and submarine communities. Different cultures or just lack of analysis and reporting? Is the naval air accident rate similar to the USAF and other air forces (taking the unique challenges of carrier aviation into account)?

The submarine accidents I've heard of* seem to be consequences of submerged operation rather than bad seamanship. Is that right?

* A sub surfacing into a Japanese boat while showing off to VIPs and a collision with a seamount are the two that come to mind.

Nightwatch can give us first hand info, but all the current and ex- naval aviators at Neptunus Lex had a very respectful attitude about the risks of naval aviation: the air is a heartless, unforgiving, cast iron murderess. They make it look easy and safe, but it ain't. Very few carriers come home with everybody alive and in one piece. That prevents the kind of complacency and disrespect of the dangers we see with the SWO approach to seamanship.

I bet the Senior Chief a decent single malt we're going to find the root cause of the Navy's seamanship deficiency is forgetting that the sea is also a heartless, unforgiving, jealous, cast iron murderess.


Wisdom I picked up from a Senior Chief on the Coral Sea, so good I wrote it down: "The difference between the sea and the enemy is that the enemy is only SOMETIMES trying to kill you--he might be on smoke break or something--but the sea is ALWAYS trying to kill you. We are interlopers in the realm of Poseidon. Death at sea may be the penalty for a lack of grace, for presumption, or for simple stupidity."

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:35 pm 
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"NW2 knows about my neighbor. She has every right to be absolutely PO'd at me. Her son is at great risk and I should have known better just how bad things were getting and I refused to believe it."

Senior, I am definitely having second thoughts about that particular conversation. The question at the time was about the threat to our ships from a potential enemy.

It seems we may have a greater enemy to our ships than the enemy.

I really really hope that I am wrong in this.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:00 pm 
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Poohbah wrote:
Johnnie Lyle wrote:
DaveAAA wrote:
In previous discussions, mostly on Warships1, I've seen it said that the USN surface warfare officer community has a rather poisonous culture. Officers who don't like getting negative feedback from their subordinates and who treat them as inferiors. If no one dares to rock the boat and if systemic problems are treated like unrelated individual failings, then not much will change.

Mind you, we don't seem to be hearing many similar stories about the aviation and submarine communities. Different cultures or just lack of analysis and reporting? Is the naval air accident rate similar to the USAF and other air forces (taking the unique challenges of carrier aviation into account)?

The submarine accidents I've heard of* seem to be consequences of submerged operation rather than bad seamanship. Is that right?

* A sub surfacing into a Japanese boat while showing off to VIPs and a collision with a seamount are the two that come to mind.

Nightwatch can give us first hand info, but all the current and ex- naval aviators at Neptunus Lex had a very respectful attitude about the risks of naval aviation: the air is a heartless, unforgiving, cast iron murderess. They make it look easy and safe, but it ain't. Very few carriers come home with everybody alive and in one piece. That prevents the kind of complacency and disrespect of the dangers we see with the SWO approach to seamanship.

I bet the Senior Chief a decent single malt we're going to find the root cause of the Navy's seamanship deficiency is forgetting that the sea is also a heartless, unforgiving, jealous, cast iron murderess.


Wisdom I picked up from a Senior Chief on the Coral Sea, so good I wrote it down: "The difference between the sea and the enemy is that the enemy is only SOMETIMES trying to kill you--he might be on smoke break or something--but the sea is ALWAYS trying to kill you. We are interlopers in the realm of Poseidon. Death at sea may be the penalty for a lack of grace, for presumption, or for simple stupidity."


oh yea....

I lost a dozen friends, shipmates and comrades who flew in the same air wing. And I saw five of them killed in three crashes on deck or ashore on the runway.

I did not know them all personally, but I did know 3 of them very well. 2 of those were killed when their old, worn out C-1 COD came apart on them in flight.

2 were killed after they retired and flew firefighting air tankers for the Forest Service and their old, surplus, obsolete, worn out aircraft folded up on them pulling out of a firefighting drop in two different fires and crashes. When I read their obituaries I realized that we had been in the 55th Strategic Wing at the same time.

Aviation will absolutely kill you if you are careless or not prepared. Submarines will kill you as well. And sometimes even if you do everything right "stuff happens" and the "Breaks of Naval Air" kicks your @$$.

In both aviation and submarines we all trained for a year or so before reporting aboard. The brand new, wet behind the ears newbie reporting aboard is already trained and competent in the basics of airmanship and submarine seamanship.

That used to be the case in surface ships. SWOS school was just as intense as submarine or aviation training and unforgiving.

The SWOS community has long had a reputation for a culture of eating their young. As in being very demanding and unforgiving of the young. But they also had a reputation for having their stuff together. They took intense pride in their seamanship, especially the Tin Can Navy!

it was not until this all blew up of late that I became aware of the closure of the SWOS school and replaced by "SWOS in a Box", and the degradation of the professional skills, and apparently the professional integrity of the leadership. Gundecking quals, pencil whipping training, Fat Leonard, etc., are all the mark of an entire Culture of Failure that seems to have taken hold. The leadership who is supposed to be training the new guys were themselves, not properly trained and don't know any better.

I think I've said this already but if this assessment is anywhere close to being right, the USN has a Very Big Problem.

And this goes well beyond The Previous Criminal Regime. While the gutting of all the services is definitely part of the problem, the loss of professional integrity and competence goes to the very heart of the Navy surface warfare officer community.

I feel sick....

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:59 am 
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Nightwatch2 wrote:


It seems we may have a greater enemy to our ships than the enemy.

I really really hope that I am wrong in this.
I'd love to tell you your wrong but everything I am hearing from the few of my kids who are still in or have retired in the last 5 years, it is even worse than we suspect.

I know I'm beating a dead horse but IMO, the closing of the SWO schools and the drastic degradation of training and
discipline standards TO ACCOMMODATE the SOCIAL ENGINEERING AGENDA is at the heart the problem.

Thank God DC training still seems to be based on our older standard.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:51 pm 
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The budget cuts and social engineering are annoying and damaging in their own ways, but they can be worked through. Eventually, the budget is increased and the social engineering is de-emphasized.

A culture issue is a different thing. It takes a long time and a lot of effort and, most importantly, they need to acknowledge that there is an issue. The good news is that the rest of the Navy seems to have their act together. As I said before, the acts of the enlisted men in these incidents has been in the highest standards of the service.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:57 pm 
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Poohbah wrote:
Johnnie Lyle wrote:
I bet the Senior Chief a decent single malt we're going to find the root cause of the Navy's seamanship deficiency is forgetting that the sea is also a heartless, unforgiving, jealous, cast iron murderess.


Wisdom I picked up from a Senior Chief on the Coral Sea, so good I wrote it down: "The difference between the sea and the enemy is that the enemy is only SOMETIMES trying to kill you--he might be on smoke break or something--but the sea is ALWAYS trying to kill you. We are interlopers in the realm of Poseidon. Death at sea may be the penalty for a lack of grace, for presumption, or for simple stupidity."


Yup she's a cruel, cold hearted B!TCH
but
the mark of a real Sailorman is to love her even when she's trying to kill you.
The day you stop loving her is the day you should swallow the anchor because she really works overtime to kill her former lovers.

Go Figure
:roll:

_________________
"If you think they’re going to give you THEIR country back without a fight, you are sadly mistaken. ;)


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