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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:01 am 
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Jotun wrote:
I thought we had established that the roots of the problem go back so far that the social engineering stuff had little impact as the damage had already been done?


Not really; the problem we have defined is that the social engineering goes back much further than just its present manifestations. In fact, I'd say it goes back to Richard Nixon and his tinkering with the draft system to make it 'fairer'. People spouting about 'fairness' is a touchstone for when troubles begin to become apparent with any system but it marks when the disease becomes established. I suppose the best way to envisage the problem is that its like underground leakage in a building. It might be there for years, quietly eroding the foundations, before the damage starts to appear. The damage was already in progress but it began to appear under Carter, was put into remission under Reagan and then started to really manifest itself under Clinton. It's been getting worse ever since.

What the social engineering stuff did was remove the dams that was holding the erosion damage back. Without a good and solid foundation, any dam will collapse and that's what is happening now.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:31 am 
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NEWS: Navy recommends changes after 2 collisions. No more 5-hour watches. Automatic identification system stays on in busy shipping lanes

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:20 am 
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Micael wrote:
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NEWS: Navy recommends changes after 2 collisions. No more 5-hour watches. Automatic identification system stays on in busy shipping lanes

Oh my. if ever there was a case of scratching the surface and leaving the real issues untouched . . . .

Talk about putting band-aids on napalm burns.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:35 am 
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Francis Urquhart wrote:
Micael wrote:
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NEWS: Navy recommends changes after 2 collisions. No more 5-hour watches. Automatic identification system stays on in busy shipping lanes

Oh my. if ever there was a case of scratching the surface and leaving the real issues untouched . . . .

Talk about putting band-aids on napalm burns.

To be fair, keeping AIS on at least gives the competent (merchant) crews out there a chance of avoiding the USN warships. Doesn't solve the problem with the USN, but it will hopefully give everyone else a better chance of avoiding them.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:36 am 
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What's a five-hour watch?

I am used to standing four-hour watches with two back-to-back two hour watches from 1200 to 1600 which serve to spread the misery of the night watches around.

There is so much wrong with how the problems started and how they are addressed now that I cannot even begin to wrap my head around it.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:54 am 
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Jotun wrote:
What's a five-hour watch?

I am used to standing four-hour watches with two back-to-back two hour watches from 1200 to 1600 which serve to spread the misery of the night watches around.

There is so much wrong with how the problems started and how they are addressed now that I cannot even begin to wrap my head around it.


The dog watches.

Why are they called dog watches?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:59 am 
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Craiglxviii wrote:
Jotun wrote:
What's a five-hour watch?

I am used to standing four-hour watches with two back-to-back two hour watches from 1200 to 1600 which serve to spread the misery of the night watches around.

There is so much wrong with how the problems started and how they are addressed now that I cannot even begin to wrap my head around it.


The dog watches.

Why are they called dog watches?

Because they're cur-tailed


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:12 am 
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In the Norwegian Navy, we used to do 4-4 or 6-6 (4/6 hrs watch, 4/6 hrs off), what I believe the US refers to as Port & Starboard and what we refer to as "war watches" in Norway. Two watch sections. It gets the job done, but you're exhausted after X weeks of that where you don't really get more than 3-4 hrs of continuous sleep at a time. Result: exhausted crews with an increased chance of screw-ups.

In an attempt to avoid that, we submariners adopted a new watch rotation a few years ago called 8-8-4-4. Still two watch sections, but here you've got 8 hrs on watch (battle snacks in the form of fruit or something similar mid-way through to keep one going), 8 hrs off watch, 4 hrs on watch, 4 hrs off watch. Meals every 8 hrs for a total of three meals. Typically, the command endeavours to keep the 8 hour periods free of drills, but intensify drilling during the two 4-hr periods. The result is that you get a rested crew taking over the watch (thus reducing the chances of screw-ups), accumulating up to 7 hrs of continuous sleep during the 8-hr off-period, while everyone are bright and alert during the drills, allowing you to get way better learning and results from them. Of course, command throws in a few alerts and drills during the 8-hr periods once in a while to keep one on one's toes, but that's fair enough. It works very well for us, and has been proven to function up to medium-intensity warfare scenarios. In high-intensity war scenario, we'll probably return to war watches (but then we get the go-pills too, so who needs sleep?). It started with the submarines, and has been spreading to the minesweepers and patrol boats.

Just my €0.02...


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:15 am 
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Ionic wrote:
Craiglxviii wrote:
Jotun wrote:
What's a five-hour watch?

I am used to standing four-hour watches with two back-to-back two hour watches from 1200 to 1600 which serve to spread the misery of the night watches around.

There is so much wrong with how the problems started and how they are addressed now that I cannot even begin to wrap my head around it.


The dog watches.

Why are they called dog watches?

Because they're cur-tailed


Good man!

Now, do you see these weevils...

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:11 am 
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Ionic wrote:
Craiglxviii wrote:
Jotun wrote:
What's a five-hour watch?

I am used to standing four-hour watches with two back-to-back two hour watches from 1200 to 1600 which serve to spread the misery of the night watches around.

There is so much wrong with how the problems started and how they are addressed now that I cannot even begin to wrap my head around it.


The dog watches.

Why are they called dog watches?

Because they're cur-tailed


We called the 0000-0400 watch Schweinewache...it was supposedly the most hated. I found the 0400-0800 watch to be worse, actually. Its only saving grace was watching the sunrise.

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A Missouri man had once written the Confederate[s] that all they had to do to get rid of the St. Louis Unionists was to destroy the breweries and seize all the beer: 'By this, the Dutch will all die in a week and the Yankees will then run from this state.'


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:33 am 
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Jotun wrote:
Ionic wrote:
Craiglxviii wrote:

The dog watches.

Why are they called dog watches?

Because they're cur-tailed


We called the 0000-0400 watch Schweinewache...it was supposedly the most hated. I found the 0400-0800 watch to be worse, actually. Its only saving grace was watching the sunrise.


Is that because standing them was a right pig of a job?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:51 am 
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Jotun wrote:
We called the 0000-0400 watch Schweinewache...it was supposedly the most hated. I found the 0400-0800 watch to be worse, actually. Its only saving grace was watching the sunrise.


In the US civilian world, the 0000 - 0800 shift is sometimes called The Graveyard Shift.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:47 am 
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edgeplay_cgo wrote:
Jotun wrote:
We called the 0000-0400 watch Schweinewache...it was supposedly the most hated. I found the 0400-0800 watch to be worse, actually. Its only saving grace was watching the sunrise.


In the US civilian world, the 0000 - 0800 shift is sometimes called The Graveyard Shift.


Spent a good many years on that shift. Great for getting things done, not many people around, fewer people wearing neckties (management types), and with the right people (most of them time) fun to be on.

Bad part trying to sleep with sun coming around the blackout blinds. BTW, also tried sleeping while they were reroofing the apartment complex, not fun when they're right overhead. :cry:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:38 am 
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jemhouston wrote:
edgeplay_cgo wrote:
Jotun wrote:
We called the 0000-0400 watch Schweinewache...it was supposedly the most hated. I found the 0400-0800 watch to be worse, actually. Its only saving grace was watching the sunrise.


In the US civilian world, the 0000 - 0800 shift is sometimes called The Graveyard Shift.


Spent a good many years on that shift. Great for getting things done, not many people around, fewer people wearing neckties (management types), and with the right people (most of them time) fun to be on.

Bad part trying to sleep with sun coming around the blackout blinds. BTW, also tried sleeping while they were reroofing the apartment complex, not fun when they're right overhead. :cry:


one does have to keep a leash on those jobs

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:30 pm 
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Jotun wrote:
What's a five-hour watch?

I am used to standing four-hour watches with two back-to-back two hour watches from 1200 to 1600 which serve to spread the misery of the night watches around.

There is so much wrong with how the problems started and how they are addressed now that I cannot even begin to wrap my head around it.


The USN has used a "Chow to chow" watch scheme when they are short of qualified watch standers.

It goes Breakfast to lunch, lunch to supper, supper to Mid and then sometimes an "All night Mid". Which gives you a full 6 hours sleep every other night. There are all kinds of modified watch scheds especially when you are port and starboard watches.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:42 pm 
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Jotun wrote:
Ionic wrote:
Craiglxviii wrote:

The dog watches.

Why are they called dog watches?

Because they're cur-tailed


We called the 0000-0400 watch Schweinewache...it was supposedly the most hated. I found the 0400-0800 watch to be worse, actually. Its only saving grace was watching the sunrise.


Yup something about that 0400ish that the human body hates.

Agree about the sun rises, especially in the Pacific, quite beautiful. If at all possible, I'd find a way to get topside with a cup of "spiked" hot Joe and very small cigar (like a petite fgurado 42x4) to watch those sunrises. When I got fairly senior everyone knew not to mess with the old bastard at such times.

Even in Dego an inport quarterdeck 4-8 come just predawn and the "cold" seemed to creep into my bones.

It's also a great time to look into your soul, if you know what I mean. ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:50 pm 
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The hour of the wolf:
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It's the time between 3:00 and 4:00 in the morning. You can't sleep, and all you can see is the troubles and the problems and the ways that your life should've gone but didn't. All you can hear is the sound of your own heart.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:32 pm 
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OSCSSW wrote:
Agree about the sun rises, especially in the Pacific, quite beautiful. If at all possible, I'd find a way to get topside with a cup of "spiked" hot Joe and very small cigar (like a petite fgurado 42x4) to watch those sunrises.



Some of the best memories I have with my dad are sitting out having coffee watching the sunrise on the gulf coast, at home, or at the airport. Being an early riser can have its rewards.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:12 am 
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0300-0400 is the dark night of the soul. The human biorhythm is at its lowest ebb. The incidence of suicides spikes during this hour. And the militaries of the world have long since realized that attacking one's foes at this hour is most advantageous.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:12 am 
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Nightwatch2 wrote:
jemhouston wrote:
Spent a good many years on that shift. Great for getting things done, not many people around, fewer people wearing neckties (management types), and with the right people (most of them time) fun to be on.

Bad part trying to sleep with sun coming around the blackout blinds. BTW, also tried sleeping while they were reroofing the apartment complex, not fun when they're right overhead. :cry:


one does have to keep a leash on those jobs

What sort of a sick mind does it take to come up with something like that?.
For all our sake, get some help.

For today I don't care.
Underway at 9:30 with an old Desert Shield/Storm Vet (one hell of a sailorman for a USNR) and his 18 year old grandson. We worked with him and his reserve MIUW during the Speed Bump days of August-October. Good people who along with a few USNR types on Prime Chance really opened my eyes to how different reserve units could be. As my paternal grandfather said "Judge the man not the group". Enough said.

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...SMALL CRAFT ADVISORY REMAINS IN EFFECT UNTIL 8 PM EDT THIS
EVENING...

* WINDS...NORTHEAST 15 TO 25 KT WITH GUSTS UP TO 30 KT.

* SEAS...6 TO 11 FEET.

It ought to be a F'n blast.

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Last edited by OSCSSW on Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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