History, Politics And Current Affairs

Opinions expressed here are personal views of contributors and do not necessarily represent the companies, organizations or governments they work for. Nor do they necessarily represent those of the Board Administration.
It is currently Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:00 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 237 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Korea
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:35 am
Posts: 5454
Location: Sweden
Hum, might not be anything. Or if it is anything doesn't have to be Korea related. Anyways:

Quote:
The frequency of EAM's and formatting is above normal right now. I have received multiple EAM's including a skyking message.

_________________
The Night Watch - A Star Trek Story


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Korea
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:47 pm
Posts: 444
edgeplay_cgo wrote:
I wonder what would be the uproar if we fired a SLBM from the Sea of Japan, over Wonsan and Pyongyang, into Korea bay?

:twisted:


The Russians go to Defcon 2 (their equivalent), fuel missiles, arm "Perimeter System"
China mobilizes there assets to similar standing.

The UN throws an epic tantrum with Russia leading the mob of torches and pitchforks

North Korea is the little guy no one takes seriously, the $#!+ they pulled was politically "adorable" although inconvenient.

If we repeat action, we're monsters. We are expected to 'set example' and be "civilized", Kim has no such constraints

Best course is we recode the BUFF's and break ground on nuclear munitions bunkers on Guam, and arrange shipments of same construction materials to Japan...quietly float the concept of Japan authorizing PACAF nuclear basing rights.

We have to be professional about this, we have to properly illustrate our lack of amusement...and loss of patience with North Korea in a mature fashion. And that is by taking his clear nuclear threats absolutely seriously.

When Russia and China see our bombers on alert pads preloaded with AGM-86B's, Minot and Barksdale being subjected to NORI after NORI..gradually sterner standards, MITO's are brought down to SAC standard...they will become concerned about our concern.

Favorably we want them to do the job for us, Russia to arrange an "accident" to remove Kim and China to install a new regime...with Second Artillery Corps carting off NORK nukes to China by dark of night. They get a new puppet/"buffer" regime and can push us to stand down and normalize relations.

Alternatively, we convince them that North Korea is no longer a wise investment and they opt to leave Kim out to dry, declaring complete neutrality and severing all relations with the DPRK. Isolating the tumor, treatment....radioactive "therapy"

As is now, Kim is gambling that Beijing and Moscow still have his back. We want them to either stab him in the back or take a...~30 minute... "smoke break"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Korea
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:35 am
Posts: 5454
Location: Sweden
Interesting times.
Quote:
SK-US agreed "in principle" that SK should develop nuke submarines: to be announced at mini SK-US summit during UNGA

Quote:
Per SK govt sources, "the debate is over" and decision will be announced after the summit, expected to take place between Sep 18th to 22th.

_________________
The Night Watch - A Star Trek Story


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Korea
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 10:18 am
Posts: 6898
Location: Where the grass is green and the girls are pretty
A reporter asked SECDEF Mattis if there were any Wal-Marts in North Korea.

He said, no, there's only Targets.

I'll be here all week, try the veal, and don't forget to tip your waitresses!

_________________
"The double tap is a myth. Shoot the threat until it goes away. Only then will his soul find peace." -- Dalai Lama


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Korea
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:15 pm 
Offline
Legendary Overlord
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:17 am
Posts: 5033
Poohbah wrote:
A reporter asked SECDEF Mattis if there were any Wal-Marts in North Korea.

He said, no, there's only Targets.

I'll be here all week, try the veal, and don't forget to tip your waitresses!


:lol:

_________________
Maybe the problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Korea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:25 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:02 pm
Posts: 2616
Other than for SLBMs I'm not sure what having nuclear-powered submarines does for South Korea. Even SLBMs would be of fairly limited use against the Fat Leader. He may well be the only leader in the world who's stupid enough to trigger a nuclear conflict. South Korean SLBMs would guarantee that he would die, even without the US doing it. North Korea has a coastal navy, and SSNs are for green- and blue-water work, not brown-water work.

If South Korea wants to engage in a more regional, or even global naval strategy then SSNs are a fine thing to have, but until the Fat Leader et al are dealt with then I'm not sure they can actually do that.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Korea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:17 pm
Posts: 495
David Newton wrote:
Other than for SLBMs I'm not sure what having nuclear-powered submarines does for South Korea. Even SLBMs would be of fairly limited use against the Fat Leader. He may well be the only leader in the world who's stupid enough to trigger a nuclear conflict.

Why do people believe things like this?

_________________
To stand an' be still to the Birken'ead drill is a damn tough bullet to chew


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Korea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 10:18 am
Posts: 6898
Location: Where the grass is green and the girls are pretty
HMS Warspite wrote:
David Newton wrote:
Other than for SLBMs I'm not sure what having nuclear-powered submarines does for South Korea. Even SLBMs would be of fairly limited use against the Fat Leader. He may well be the only leader in the world who's stupid enough to trigger a nuclear conflict.

Why do people believe things like this?


Because he's already broken so many damn international taboos and gotten away with it, he might figure he can get away with going full retard.

_________________
"The double tap is a myth. Shoot the threat until it goes away. Only then will his soul find peace." -- Dalai Lama


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Korea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:54 pm
Posts: 207
He could not be that stupid or he would have been the one executed with flamethrower a long time ago.

Considering what happened to Ghaddafi, Saddam, Ukraine etc. it seems prudent for him to develop nukes.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Korea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:33 pm
Posts: 302
HMS Warspite wrote:
Why do people believe things like this?


Kim lives in an ideological echo-chamber. This is a man who has murdered family members with an anti-aircraft gun. Do you really think any of his 'advisors' are going to risk their lives to tell him the the truth? He is told every day EXACTLY what he wants and expects to hear.

I have a friend who was stationed in South Korea several years ago. He related to me that one of his fellow medical professionals went to the North to perform cataract surgeries. He did many more than was agree to. But when the bandages came off, he told my friend that every one of the North Koreans jumped up said something to the effect of "Thank you Kim il Sung for giving me my sight back so I can work for you". Like I said, it was several years ago. But it is an illustration of just how brain-washed those people are.

My thoughts,

_________________
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Korea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:12 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:56 pm
Posts: 3259
Location: Kingdom of Gammaraybia
David Newton wrote:
If South Korea wants to engage in a more regional, or even global naval strategy then SSNs are a fine thing to have, but until the Fat Leader et al are dealt with then I'm not sure they can actually do that.

The ability to construct nuclear submarines is either a bargaining chip of some kind, or else the South Koreans might be thinking about expanding their shipbuilding industry's product mix to sell to an ever-growing international warship market. Or maybe its both.

_________________
An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Korea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 2428
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
1Big Rich wrote:
But when the bandages came off, he told my friend that every one of the North Koreans jumped up said something to the effect of "Thank you Kim il Sung for giving me my sight back so I can work for you". Like I said, it was several years ago. But it is an illustration of just how brain-washed those people are.

Not necessarily brainwashed, but aware enough to know that failure to show gratitude to the Eternal Leader would result in their eyesight being removed. This, of course, may be a difference that makes no difference. So long as North Koreans believe the Kim has the power of life or death over them and their families and friends, they'll behave as if they are True Believers whether they are or not.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Korea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:08 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:49 pm
Posts: 10710
David Newton wrote:
If South Korea wants to engage in a more regional, or even global naval strategy then SSNs are a fine thing to have, but until the Fat Leader et al are dealt with then I'm not sure they can actually do that.

SSNs are power projection tool but, much more importantly, they are a political influence tool. Once they are at sea, nobody really knows where they are, what they are doing or what they have in their tubes. They create a vague, indefinable atmosphere of menace that is all the more ominous because of its substantial nature.

Now, imagine that the areas of power projection are circles drawn around the home country. Diesel-electric submarines have a very limited circle; they're slow and have limited strategic mobility. They're often called mobile minefields for a reason. Land-based aircraft have circles of influence, so do carriers etc etc. Nuclear-powered submarines have a large circle of influence. So, by South Korea acquiring nuclear submarines, they are significantly increasing the extent to which they can project power and project influence.

Let's take that a step further. Envisage a map of the area with nations given circles of power and influence projection capability. North Korea's missiles give it a large area of influence; equip those missiles with nuclear warheads and they have a large area of significant power and influence projection. Japan also has a large circle with economic power substituting for a degree of military power although Japanese military capability is not insignificant. Now, on that map with all its circles, South Korea is actually a relatively minor player. It's circle is overwhelmed by that of North Korea. So, by acquiring SSNs, it significantly enlarges its circle and relatively speaking diminishes that of North Korea. That's worth doing.

_________________
Nations do not survive by setting examples for others.
Nations survive by making examples of others


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Korea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:56 pm
Posts: 3259
Location: Kingdom of Gammaraybia
Francis Urquhart wrote:
David Newton wrote:
If South Korea wants to engage in a more regional, or even global naval strategy then SSNs are a fine thing to have, but until the Fat Leader et al are dealt with then I'm not sure they can actually do that.

SSNs are power projection tool but, much more importantly, they are a political influence tool. Once they are at sea, nobody really knows where they are, what they are doing or what they have in their tubes. They create a vague, indefinable atmosphere of menace that is all the more ominous because of its substantial nature.

Now, imagine that the areas of power projection are circles drawn around the home country. Diesel-electric submarines have a very limited circle; they're slow and have limited strategic mobility. They're often called mobile minefields for a reason. Land-based aircraft have circles of influence, so do carriers etc etc. Nuclear-powered submarines have a large circle of influence. So, by South Korea acquiring nuclear submarines, they are significantly increasing the extent to which they can project power and project influence.

Let's take that a step further. Envisage a map of the area with nations given circles of power and influence projection capability. North Korea's missiles give it a large area of influence; equip those missiles with nuclear warheads and they have a large area of significant power and influence projection. Japan also has a large circle with economic power substituting for a degree of military power although Japanese military capability is not insignificant. Now, on that map with all its circles, South Korea is actually a relatively minor player. It's circle is overwhelmed by that of North Korea. So, by acquiring SSNs, it significantly enlarges its circle and relatively speaking diminishes that of North Korea. That's worth doing.

Two issues here in thinking about how a South Korean SSN can be made to happen:

(1) In the past, South Korean President Moon has billed himself as an anti-nuclear pacifist, and he has said that he will slow and reverse SK's past commitment to a national and international civilian nuclear power industry. How does building a Korean SSN square with President Moon's prior stated political beliefs concerning nuclear?

(2) Does South Korea have the technical and managerial expertise, and a sufficiently skilled shipbuilding workforce, to construct a reliable nuclear submarine?

_________________
An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Korea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:55 am
Posts: 4698
Location: D88 by night, D20 by day
Scott Brim wrote:
(2) Does South Korea have the technical and managerial expertise, and a sufficiently skilled shipbuilding workforce, to construct a reliable nuclear submarine?

Undoubtedly. South Korea is probably the world's preeminent shipbuilding nation, and has a very significant nuclear power program. I've no doubt that if they want an SSN, they can build a very good one very quickly.

_________________
If the BBC told me that it was dark outside at two o'clock in the morning on a stormy day in December, I would feel obliged to check their facts.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Korea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:02 am
Posts: 15929
Location: Planet Earth, Milky Way, Universe
Scott Brim wrote:
Francis Urquhart wrote:
David Newton wrote:
If South Korea wants to engage in a more regional, or even global naval strategy then SSNs are a fine thing to have, but until the Fat Leader et al are dealt with then I'm not sure they can actually do that.

SSNs are power projection tool but, much more importantly, they are a political influence tool. Once they are at sea, nobody really knows where they are, what they are doing or what they have in their tubes. They create a vague, indefinable atmosphere of menace that is all the more ominous because of its substantial nature.

Now, imagine that the areas of power projection are circles drawn around the home country. Diesel-electric submarines have a very limited circle; they're slow and have limited strategic mobility. They're often called mobile minefields for a reason. Land-based aircraft have circles of influence, so do carriers etc etc. Nuclear-powered submarines have a large circle of influence. So, by South Korea acquiring nuclear submarines, they are significantly increasing the extent to which they can project power and project influence.

Let's take that a step further. Envisage a map of the area with nations given circles of power and influence projection capability. North Korea's missiles give it a large area of influence; equip those missiles with nuclear warheads and they have a large area of significant power and influence projection. Japan also has a large circle with economic power substituting for a degree of military power although Japanese military capability is not insignificant. Now, on that map with all its circles, South Korea is actually a relatively minor player. It's circle is overwhelmed by that of North Korea. So, by acquiring SSNs, it significantly enlarges its circle and relatively speaking diminishes that of North Korea. That's worth doing.

Two issues here in thinking about how a South Korean SSN can be made to happen:

(1) In the past, South Korean President Moon has billed himself as an anti-nuclear pacifist, and he has said that he will slow and reverse SK's past commitment to a national and international civilian nuclear power industry. How does building a Korean SSN square with President Moon's prior stated political beliefs concerning nuclear?

(2) Does South Korea have the technical and managerial expertise, and a sufficiently skilled shipbuilding workforce, to construct a reliable nuclear submarine?


We can give them "Export Version" plans of the SSN Virginia. They can then build their own Tomahawk missiles, load them up with bio weapons and sail them off the Chinese coast. "We go, you go." :mrgreen:

_________________
I am Charlie


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Korea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:49 pm
Posts: 10710
RLBH wrote:
Undoubtedly. South Korea is probably the world's preeminent shipbuilding nation, and has a very significant nuclear power program. I've no doubt that if they want an SSN, they can build a very good one very quickly.


They're also picked up a lot of German submarine technology by building Klasse 209-1400s and Klasse 214KN submarines under license. I'd say they could build a vanilla SSN right now - as in lay the keel tomorrow.

_________________
Nations do not survive by setting examples for others.
Nations survive by making examples of others


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Korea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:13 pm
Posts: 14226
Location: PCE(R)-857
Francis Urquhart wrote:
David Newton wrote:
If South Korea wants to engage in a more regional, or even global naval strategy then SSNs are a fine thing to have, but until the Fat Leader et al are dealt with then I'm not sure they can actually do that.

SSNs are power projection tool but, much more importantly, they are a political influence tool. Once they are at sea, nobody really knows where they are, what they are doing or what they have in their tubes. They create a vague, indefinable atmosphere of menace that is all the more ominous because of its substantial nature.

Now, imagine that the areas of power projection are circles drawn around the home country. Diesel-electric submarines have a very limited circle; they're slow and have limited strategic mobility. They're often called mobile minefields for a reason. Land-based aircraft have circles of influence, so do carriers etc etc. Nuclear-powered submarines have a large circle of influence. So, by South Korea acquiring nuclear submarines, they are significantly increasing the extent to which they can project power and project influence.

Let's take that a step further. Envisage a map of the area with nations given circles of power and influence projection capability. North Korea's missiles give it a large area of influence; equip those missiles with nuclear warheads and they have a large area of significant power and influence projection. Japan also has a large circle with economic power substituting for a degree of military power although Japanese military capability is not insignificant. Now, on that map with all its circles, South Korea is actually a relatively minor player. It's circle is overwhelmed by that of North Korea. So, by acquiring SSNs, it significantly enlarges its circle and relatively speaking diminishes that of North Korea. That's worth doing.

Not just the Norks.

Their power projection ability goes up relative to all their neighbors, especially those who are economically dependent on their SLOCs.

_________________
Shepard: "What kind of weapons does this thing have?"
Liara T'Soni: "It's a taxi; it has a fare meter!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Korea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:49 pm
Posts: 10710
Johnnie Lyle wrote:
Not just the Norks. Their power projection ability goes up relative to all their neighbors, especially those who are economically dependent on their SLOCs.


Very much so - and that also has its impact on the Norks. By increasing presence with all the other countries in the area, that proportionally decreases the ability of the North to intimidate (for example) potential trading partners for the South. And, of course, vice-versa. One way of looking on this is that political and power projection capability between north and south is a zero-sum game and any increase by one is a decrease for the other. In effect, even considering the possibility of building an SSN is boosting SKs position as a regional power. Japan will be taking serious note of that.

_________________
Nations do not survive by setting examples for others.
Nations survive by making examples of others


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Korea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:56 pm
Posts: 3259
Location: Kingdom of Gammaraybia
Francis Urquhart wrote:
Johnnie Lyle wrote:
Not just the Norks. Their power projection ability goes up relative to all their neighbors, especially those who are economically dependent on their SLOCs.
Very much so - and that also has its impact on the Norks. By increasing presence with all the other countries in the area, that proportionally decreases the ability of the North to intimidate (for example) potential trading partners for the South. And, of course, vice-versa. One way of looking on this is that political and power projection capability between north and south is a zero-sum game and any increase by one is a decrease for the other. In effect, even considering the possibility of building an SSN is boosting SKs position as a regional power. Japan will be taking serious note of that.

It would appear that applying nuclear technologies to a variety of military systems is becoming an ever-more attractive business growth opportunity in the far western Pacific.

_________________
An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 237 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group