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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Micael wrote:
underwater impulsive event

....not good.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:48 pm 
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Falkland Islands twitter account:

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The Argentine Navy has confirmed the deaths of all 44 of the crew of the submarine ARA San Juan, an explosion onboard is understood to have been the cause of the accident.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:54 pm 
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Ah sh*t.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:50 pm 
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Members of Fiddler's Green raised a toast to the new arrivals.

Rest in Peace


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:56 pm 
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RIP if true...there is still conflicting reports on whether it was an official statement or not.

It is looking very bad now though.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:44 pm 
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RIP to a brave crew.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:14 pm 
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I hope they can find the actual hull, so the family members can have closure, and that they can figure out what went wrong and improve safety going forward. A reminder that duty is always dangerous, even in peacetime.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:46 am 
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Nik_SpeakerToCats wrote:
Better 70 metres than 'over the edge', down, down to the abyssal plain...
{Shudder}
Sounds like they were making their way inshore. Perhaps they had flooding in the forward battery area ??


I dunno, I'd rather the can I'm in be crushed in an instant than suffocate inside of it knowing help was going to be too later arriving.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:05 am 
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Nathan45 wrote:
I hope they can find the actual hull, so the family members can have closure, and that they can figure out what went wrong and improve safety going forward. A reminder that duty is always dangerous, even in peacetime.


I suspect that poor maintenance will probably turn out to be a contributory cause.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:32 am 
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The Russians have decided to join in the SAR now, one might think a bit on the late side.

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The Russian Navy’s specialists have left St. Petersburg on AN-124 military transport aircraft for Argentine to help search for the submarine San Juan.
The unit is made up of a commander and operators for the Pantera Plus deep-sea craft, salvage divers and a diving medic.
Earlier, containers with the Pantera Plus and diving equipment were delivered to the Pulkovo airport from the city of Lomonosov.
The unit leader is 1st Rank Captain Sergey Bashmakov, the Head of the Rescue and Underwater Technologies R&D Institute.
All the Russian specialists have long-term experience of search-and-rescue operations. Salvage divers as well as operators for the Pantera Plus deep-sea craft have been mastering their skills in course of numerous exercises and trainings.
For Reference:
On November 23, on behalf of the Russian President, the Minister of Defence of the Russian Federation General of the Army Sergei Shoigu held a telephone conversation with his counterpart from Argentine.
According to results of the negotiations, the head of the Russian defence department made a decision to send specialists of the 328th expedition search-and-rescue unit of the Russian Navy to provide assistance to the Argentine in search for the submarine San Juan.
Within the shortest possible time, transport aircraft is to deliver the specialists with the Pantera Plus deep-sea craft to carry out search works.
Moreover, Russian Navy ocean survey ship Yantar has been sent to the region. Currently, the ship is conducting scheduled works near west Africa shores.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:02 am 
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Requiescant in pace, guys. My prayers and condolences to their families, friends and shipmates. Fair winds and following seas.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:53 am 
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Why has it taken so long for word of the explosion to get out? Does it take that long for data to be analyzed and disseminated, or were the Argentines less than forthcoming about what they knew?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:11 pm 
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They didn’t know. The explosion was found by manual post-processing by US sensors. Pretty much the same thing they did to find USS Scorpion.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:21 pm 
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drunknsubmrnr wrote:
They didn’t know. The explosion was found by manual post-processing by US sensors. Pretty much the same thing they did to find USS Scorpion.

Both US and CTBTO sensors indicated the same thing independently of one another, adds to the reliability/accuracy of the assessment.

[edit] CTBTO on the topic:
”On 15 November 2017 two CTBTO hydroacoustic stations detected an unusual signal in the vicinity of the last known position of missing Argentine submarine ARA San Juan; stations HA10 (Ascension Island) and HA04 (Crozet)

The location of the event was pinpointed to Latitude: -46.12 deg; Event Longitude: -59.69 (vicinity of the last known location of the ARA San Juan). Data were made available to the Argentinian Authorities. (Here is a map showing the triangulation from the actual sensors to the pinpointed location)

What are hydroacoustic stations? They are part of the CTBTO’s International Monitoring System (IMS) for signs of nuclear explosions. Low frequency underwater sound propagates very efficiently through water, allowing for detection at thousands of kilometres from their source. This is why there are only eleven hydroacoustic stations.

What is special about HA04 at Crozet? It was only certified recently, in June 2017 (Hence, the timing could have been a near miss for detecting the recent explosion).

Why did it take so long to report this signal? The oceans are very “noisy”. Our engineers had to sift through a very large volume of data from underwater hydrophones in far-reaching parts of the world, looking for signals which could be related to the submarine’s disappearance. Also, because the IMS is designed to detect larger events (nuclear explosions), a smaller signal such as the one that was detected is much more difficult to isolate and locate. It required manual analysis of data and custom-designed software. Many thousands of possible signals from sources of noise had to be sorted through and in some cases new algorithms and approaches were developed to filter out other noise and to find this signal. This effort took considerable time by scientists.

Was this an explosion? How big was the explosion? The system detected a short, impulsive, and broadband signal in a low frequency spectrum that is not audible to humans. The signal did not look like earthquakes or biological sounds that are commonly heard under water, but it has some characteristics in common with signals from underwater explosions. Estimating a possible magnitude is even more difficult because this sound has propagated over a large distance from the source location to the receiver, but this is something that the engineers and scientists are currently still working on.”

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Last edited by Micael on Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:38 pm 
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Current word (I'm not at the right desk right now) is that the batteries on the submarine hadn't been changed since 2008 and were completely worn out. Effectively they would only take a slow trickle charge. The commander tried charging batteries on snort and ran the charging plant at full power (one of the quirks of the TR-1700 is that it has extra battery capacity in place of some charging capacity so it has good battery life but slow recharging so commanders tended to run the charging plant flat out). and the result was that the charge was being delivered much faster than the batteries could process. So, everything overheated and caught fire. The overcharge had also caused hydrogen to be released and that exploded. The pressure hull then collapsed.

Don't know how much truth there is in that, I'm not in a position to check right now.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:40 pm 
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There are platinum catalysts that are set up to get rid of any hydrogen produced by charging. They may not have been fitted for this trip. I’d think platinum plates would be one of the first things to go adrift if there’s a budget shortage.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:55 pm 
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drunknsubmrnr wrote:
There are platinum catalysts that are set up to get rid of any hydrogen produced by charging. They may not have been fitted for this trip. I’d think platinum plates would be one of the first things to go adrift if there’s a budget shortage.

There's rumors that a lot of Argentine ships have problems with valuable components being removed and sold so that would fit in.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:58 pm 
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I shall make a trip to the shore tomorrow and have a sip and a few heartfelt thoughts in remembrance of the crew. Most of my navy classmates I am in contact with have decorated their FB photos with the sub's crest.

Meaningless gestures in the grand scheme of things but as (ex-) sailors, there is a bond between us all.

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 Post subject: platinum catalysts
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:12 pm 
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The platinum catalyst devices may be present but, IIRC, the active surface may 'blind' with time and become ineffective...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:46 pm 
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There was a very interesting article by Capt 1 Rank Sergey Kubynin in Mil.Today, an independent (but very well-informed) Russian website on the loss.

ARA San Juan: Tragedy Causes

Based on the available facts, the experts suggest there was a battery ignition in the sub, which the crew failed or could not cope with. Such indirect facts as absence of signals from main and reserve communication systems or emergency buoys, failure to find life rafts etc. indicate that the submarine perished under water, without surfacing. In this case, the buoys might not eject due to either fast falling on the bottom or considerable listing. Even if the buoys were launched, it might be too deep for them to surface. Length of the rope was not enough to let the buoy reach the surface; the buoy length is also related to the capabilities of submariners’ personal salvage aids.

Based on the available facts, the experts suggest there was a battery ignition in the sub, which the crew failed or could not cope with. Such indirect facts as absence of signals from main and reserve communication systems or emergency buoys, failure to find life rafts etc. indicate that the submarine perished under water, without surfacing. In this case, the buoys might not eject due to either fast falling on the bottom or considerable listing. Even if the buoys were launched, it might be too deep for them to surface. Length of the rope was not enough to let the buoy reach the surface; the buoy length is also related to the capabilities of submariners’ personal salvage aids.

According to official statements, on Nov 15 the San Juan’s crew reported on problems with batteries which were allegedly resolved. In this situation, further passage should have been done only in surface position. However, in view of poor navigability of low-displacement submarines, the commanding officer and higher officials might wrongly decide that the batteries issue had been neutralized by disconnecting failed jars, and chose diving to reduce the rolling effects.

Officials stated about an abnormal single short powerful non-nuclear occurrence on Wednesday, Nov 15, that corresponds to explosion and was recorded by several independent agencies. Grown load on the remained batteries or other power energy problems could lead to explosion of batteries themselves or concentrated hydrogen with further volumetric fire. The sub had no weapons onboard, and blown batteries typically sound just like torpedo burst at first acoustic analysis.

In case of battery explosion, the submarine’s strength hull might instantly go broken, and the submarine then sank. If the incident was followed by the volumetric fire, the bulkheads burned down, pipelines and ballast tanks were decompressed and took sea water inside the sub, with further sinking. The acoustic effect after collapse of bulkheads (if the hatches were buttoned) and the strength hull while falling below the limit depth is hardly probable, as prevailing depths in that area are about 200 meters. For information, the sound of collapsing bulkheads must be registered by sonars separately.

The fact that the submarine could be on surface while ignition or/and explosion does not cardinally change the potential accident picture. By the way, most of the subs perished by fire did manage to surface before sinking (K-8, K-219, K-278), but the damage control activities were ineffective, and those subs sank anyway. Volumetric fire at large submarines having lots of pressure bulkheads may last even several days. In this particular case, due to relatively small size of the sub, the scenario could develop rapidly, leaving no chances for proper putting afloat life rafts and the crew evacuation. Keeping in mind the stormy weather on that and further days, the possibility of successful getting on life rafts was minimal.

Timeframes of a grounded submarine search operation may vary from one day to several months or even years. Example, Israeli INS Dakar 77 was found 31 years after the tragedy. Depths and bottom contours are essential factors here.

http://mil.today/2017/Incidents7/

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