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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:59 pm 
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Interesting, so the snorkel may be to blame.

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Water entered missing Argentine sub's snorkel, causing short circuit
Hugh Bronstein
3 MIN READ
BUENOS AIRES (Reuters) - Water entered the snorkel of the Argentine submarine ARA San Juan, causing its battery to short-circuit before it went missing on Nov. 15, a navy spokesman said on Monday as hope dwindled among some families of the 44-member crew.

A bouquet of flowers and banners in support of the 44 crew members of the missing at sea ARA San Juan submarine are placed on a fence outside an Argentine naval base in Mar del Plata, Argentina November 25, 2017. The banner below reads "God, give strenght to the submariners". REUTERS/Marcos Brindicci
The San Juan had only a seven-day oxygen supply when it lost contact, and a sudden noise was detected that the navy says could have been the implosion of the vessel. Ships with rescue equipment from countries including the United States and Russia were nonetheless rushing to join the search.

Before its disappearance, the submarine had been ordered back to its Mar del Plata base after it reported water had entered the vessel through its snorkel, causing a battery short circuit, navy spokesman Enrique Balbi told a news conference.

“They had to isolate the battery and continue to sail underwater toward Mar del Plata, using another battery,” Balbi said.

After contact with the San Juan was lost, the Vienna-based Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty Organization, an international body that runs a global network of listening posts designed to check for secret atomic blasts, detected a noise the navy said could have been the submarine’s implosion.

People stand next to a bouquet of flowers and banners in support of the 44 crew members of the missing at sea ARA San Juan submarine, outside an Argentine naval base in Mar del Plata, Argentina November 25, 2017. REUTERS/Marcos Brindicci
The search for the 65-meter (213-foot) diesel-electric submarine is concentrated in an area some 430 km (267 miles) off Argentina’s southern coast. The effort includes ships and planes manned by 4,000 personnel from 13 countries, including Brazil, Chile and Great Britain.

Among the crew’s family members, fissures started appearing on Monday between those who refuse to give up hope and those who say it is time to accept that their loved ones will not come back alive.

Some relatives have said they are focusing on the lack of physical evidence of an implosion and the possibility that the submarine might have risen close enough to the ocean surface to replenish its oxygen supply after it went missing.

But Itati Leguizamon said she believed her husband, crew member German Suarez, had died.

”There is no way they are alive,“ she told reporters, her voice shaking and eyes welling with tears. ”It is not that I want this. I love him. I adore him. He left his mother and sister behind, but there is no sense in being stubborn.

“The other families are attacking me for what I am saying,” she said, “but why have they not found it yet? Why don’t they tell us the truth?”

Additional reporting by Eliana Raszewski; Editing by Lisa Von Ahn
Our Standards:The Thomson Reuters Trust Principles.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:35 pm 
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Stupid question from a non-sailor, if the damage was severe enough that they couldn't operate half the batteries, wouldn't running surfaced solely on the diesels be appropriate? During peacetime that seems safer.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:03 pm 
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You can make a direct connection from the generators to the motors but it’s usually an emergency last move that involves a lot of arcing and sparking. If it’s that bad, you’re probably not going to want to do it submerged.

However, you might not want to surface because the casing draining sets up a situation where the boat can be flipped in rough weather. That would also be bad.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:21 am 
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Note the bolded part, doesn’t sound like a minor issue to me.
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From navy spokeperson answers:
- Active and retired navy personel are together in the effort of supporting the crew families
- 23 ships, 12 airplanes from 8 countries are helping us.
- Seawater entry was not only by snorkel but from the ventilation system.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:34 am 
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That’s odd....normally you ventilate the boat as part of snorting. The air passes through the snort mast, into the boat and the donks take their air out of the boat. Do the Germans have multiple snort masts? Or is the Armada saying that they had both snort and exhaust mast issues?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:40 am 
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drunknsubmrnr wrote:
That’s odd....normally you ventilate the boat as part of snorting. The air passes through the snort mast, into the boat and the donks take their air out of the boat. Do the Germans have multiple snort masts? Or is the Armada saying that they had both snort and exhaust mast issues?

Just the one. However, a lot might depend upon where the snort design came from. The French Daphne boats had a serious snort problem that cost them (IIRC) three submarines.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:55 am 
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Francis Urquhart wrote:
drunknsubmrnr wrote:
That’s odd....normally you ventilate the boat as part of snorting. The air passes through the snort mast, into the boat and the donks take their air out of the boat. Do the Germans have multiple snort masts? Or is the Armada saying that they had both snort and exhaust mast issues?

Just the one. However, a lot might depend upon where the snort design came from. The French Daphne boats had a serious snort problem that cost them (IIRC) three submarines.

If I were to ask if the root cause was more likely to be a lack of training, poor maintenance, little sea time, old boats, or officer leadership, I suspect the answer would be "Yes."

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:17 pm 
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So root cause = politicos not caring about military ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:05 pm 
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IIRC the French issue was that the snort masts were breaking off. There ain’t no comin’ back from THAT. They weren’t even able to get a distress call off.

In this case it looked like the boat recovered enough that they didn’t feel like they were in danger.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:14 pm 
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drunknsubmrnr wrote:
IIRC the French issue was that the snort masts were breaking off. There ain’t no comin’ back from THAT. They weren’t even able to get a distress call off.

The version I got was that the intake valve failed catastrophically causing an uncontrollable flow of water down the snort which overwhelmed the flood control valve at the bottom and it all went downhill from there.

Quote:
In this case it looked like the boat recovered enough that they didn’t feel like they were in danger.


I'm not sure. The Russian input suggests that a Russian submarine with this level of defects would not be allowed to submerge at all. The impression I get is that the crew cured the superficial symptoms of a problem without addressing the underlying cause. By the way. the TR-family submarines (1500 and 1700) don't have good reputations. To get a decent range out of them, apparently the designers stuffed fuel tanks into every available corner so they have a lot of small, awkwardly-shaped fuel tanks that are a constant corrosion problem.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:29 pm 
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Craiglxviii wrote:
So root cause = politicos not caring about military ;)

Not exactly. They care deeply about the military - in so far as the military are the people who kidnapped a lot of people awfully like them, sedated them and threw them out of aeroplanes into the sea. What they don't do is support the armed forces, at least beyond the minimum level required to ensure they don't get humiliated by the Chileans or turfed out by an electorate who thinks the armed forces have been cut too far. It's similar to France before WW2 where proposing a professional officer class (as Charles de Gaulle did) was the kiss of death to a military career because the politicians all remembered the end of the Paris Commune and thought the army was itching to do the same thing to them if given half a chance.

Francis Urquhart wrote:
The version I got was that the intake valve failed catastrophically causing an uncontrollable flow of water down the snort which overwhelmed the flood control valve at the bottom and it all went downhill from there.

Isn't that awfully like what was suspected to have happened to Affray?

Francis Urquhart wrote:
I'm not sure. The Russian input suggests that a Russian submarine with this level of defects would not be allowed to submerge at all. The impression I get is that the crew cured the superficial symptoms of a problem without addressing the underlying cause.

The Russians get a lot more sea time than the Argentinians, however, and had a much bigger fleet so even when money was very tight were able to keep at least the seedcorn going. I'm not convinced Argentina even managed that, so they may not have known what they didn't know...

Francis Urquhart wrote:
By the way. the TR-family submarines (1500 and 1700) don't have good reputations. To get a decent range out of them, apparently the designers stuffed fuel tanks into every available corner so they have a lot of small, awkwardly-shaped fuel tanks that are a constant corrosion problem.

Did the design team have any history with submarines? I can't anything saying so, but that doesn't mean a lot.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:52 pm 
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pdf27 wrote:
Isn't that awfully like what was suspected to have happened to Affray?
It is believed to be so; suggesting the French and British snorts had a systemic design fault coming from common parentage

Quote:
The Russians get a lot more sea time than the Argentinians, however, and had a much bigger fleet so even when money was very tight were able to keep at least the seedcorn going. I'm not convinced Argentina even managed that, so they may not have known what they didn't know...

I'm not convinced on that point either. I've noticed that Argentina seems to run on the concept that activity is a substitute for achievement.

Quote:
Did the design team have any history with submarines? I can't anything saying so, but that doesn't mean a lot.


They were basically half the German WW2 submarine design and construction effort. When HKL got back into submarines, Thyssen wanted to follow suite and rushed the TR design through to compete. TR1500 sold to India (who don't like them at all) and to Argentina and that's it.

Gallows humor doing the rounds by the way. For those who don't like graveyard jokes, I'll put this in spoilers. It is pretty out there so those of tender sensibilities should refrain.

Last message from the San Juan. "Who let that bloody woman drive?"

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:17 pm 
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The version I got was that the intake valve failed catastrophically causing an uncontrollable flow of water down the snort which overwhelmed the flood control valve at the bottom and it all went downhill from there.


You’d have to have the top of the snort mast break off for that to matter. The valve is at the top of the mast, which is normally above the water. It’s just there if the occasional wave washes over the mast.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:12 am 
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Since there is no way that the cataclysmic state of the Argentinian armed forces is limited to its army and air force, I think the loss of the boat and her crew is "thanks" to a combination of old equipment, shoddy maintenance, lack of money, political mistakes and morale problems thanks to all of the aforementioned. It is infuriating and deeply saddening.

@FU: No worries about that joke, at least from me. Sometimes I think I should have been a Brit or a Russian according to my appreciation of deep black humor...

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:04 am 
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There’s a Harry Enfield video appropriate to that...

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:42 am 
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Jotun wrote:
Since there is no way that the cataclysmic state of the Argentinian armed forces is limited to its army and air force, I think the loss of the boat and her crew is "thanks" to a combination of old equipment, shoddy maintenance, lack of money, political mistakes and morale problems thanks to all of the aforementioned. It is infuriating and deeply saddening.

@FU: No worries about that joke, at least from me. Sometimes I think I should have been a Brit or a Russian according to my appreciation of deep black humor...


"But who in war would not have his laugh amid the skulls."

W Churchill

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:01 pm 
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Re the joke sure it wasn't a case of one of the male officers trying to show off to the female? I.e 'hey, Amiga, watch this! :D

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:44 am 
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Bernard Woolley wrote:
Re the joke sure it wasn't a case of one of the male officers trying to show off to the female? I.e 'hey, Amiga, watch this! :D

Hold my cerveza, I got this...

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:34 am 
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Argentina ends missing submarine rescue mission

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-42187139


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:03 am 
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Jotun wrote:
@FU: No worries about that joke, at least from me. Sometimes I think I should have been a Brit or a Russian according to my appreciation of deep black humor...


Supposedly, scientists have determined that dark humor is an early sign of dementia.

Apparently, I should've been in a long-term memory care facility before I was 30...

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