History, Politics And Current Affairs

Opinions expressed here are personal views of contributors and do not necessarily represent the companies, organizations or governments they work for. Nor do they necessarily represent those of the Board Administration.
It is currently Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:45 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 104 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Hawaii missile alert
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:13 pm
Posts: 14537
Location: PCE(R)-857
KDahm wrote:
As a minimum, I would expect there to be two menus to select options from. One for the real warnings, one for the drills and tests. It would also be nice if the labeling was clear, so the operator did not have to guess what "PACOM (CDW) - STATE ONLY" meant.

Preferentially, I'd have three menus, dividing the real one into a frequently used and a once in a blue moon section.

The more levels of file structure, the more delay and the more time newbies spend rummaging through the lists. Especially if they have to repeat the process for all future communications on that incident. Any corner that can be cut will be cut in the need for speed.

Proper nomenclature does a lot to avoid errors and negate the need for menus.

_________________
Jack: So, if the compartment was locked, how did you get in?
Phryne: I hit the lock with me shoe.
Jack: Your shoe seems to have the ballistic capabilities of a .38 revolver.
Phryne: Fancy that.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hawaii missile alert
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:38 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:55 am
Posts: 17957
Location: Chicagoland
Johnnie Lyle wrote:
KDahm wrote:
As a minimum, I would expect there to be two menus to select options from. One for the real warnings, one for the drills and tests. It would also be nice if the labeling was clear, so the operator did not have to guess what "PACOM (CDW) - STATE ONLY" meant.

Preferentially, I'd have three menus, dividing the real one into a frequently used and a once in a blue moon section.

The more levels of file structure, the more delay and the more time newbies spend rummaging through the lists. Especially if they have to repeat the process for all future communications on that incident. Any corner that can be cut will be cut in the need for speed.

Proper nomenclature does a lot to avoid errors and negate the need for menus.


We're talking two menus, here. The top level menu would have two buttons, ALERT and DRILL/TEST.

The second level menu would have the various alerts and drills, arranged in a similar order. Perhaps the alert page would have a red background and the Drill page would be green.

_________________
- Dennis

Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory there is no survival."
-Sir Winston Churchill


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hawaii missile alert
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:13 pm
Posts: 14537
Location: PCE(R)-857
edgeplay_cgo wrote:
Johnnie Lyle wrote:
KDahm wrote:
As a minimum, I would expect there to be two menus to select options from. One for the real warnings, one for the drills and tests. It would also be nice if the labeling was clear, so the operator did not have to guess what "PACOM (CDW) - STATE ONLY" meant.

Preferentially, I'd have three menus, dividing the real one into a frequently used and a once in a blue moon section.

The more levels of file structure, the more delay and the more time newbies spend rummaging through the lists. Especially if they have to repeat the process for all future communications on that incident. Any corner that can be cut will be cut in the need for speed.

Proper nomenclature does a lot to avoid errors and negate the need for menus.


We're talking two menus, here. The top level menu would have two buttons, ALERT and DRILL/TEST.

The second level menu would have the various alerts and drills, arranged in a similar order. Perhaps the alert page would have a red background and the Drill page would be green.

And it will only stay that way until you start generating messages, especially in an incident. Then they will just be parked wherever, especially if they're sending out mass notifications on hourly intervals, as the public is increasingly demanding. Especially if you ise previous messages as a template.

Cleaning up the alert system will be #654 on somebody's revovery list, which means it won't be done, because ain't nobody got time for that. End result, people have two folders like the shown example. Or more, as people decide they want massive granularity to "prevent this from happening again."

For all the harping about the screen, the correction was out within minites, and the day to day operations do not show repeat errors. **** happens, and staff was on the ball to fix it.

Rather than dumping staff time and money into reconfiguring the GUI, I'd put in a proper nomenclature procedure and put my big effort into finding who didn't get the word.

_________________
Jack: So, if the compartment was locked, how did you get in?
Phryne: I hit the lock with me shoe.
Jack: Your shoe seems to have the ballistic capabilities of a .38 revolver.
Phryne: Fancy that.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hawaii missile alert
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:17 pm
Posts: 136
Location: Summerville, SC
they can't just have the real alert be a big red button with a flip up glass lid?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hawaii missile alert
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:13 pm
Posts: 14537
Location: PCE(R)-857
Marko Dash wrote:
they can't just have the real alert be a big red button with a flip up glass lid?

I wish. Would solve many problems.

_________________
Jack: So, if the compartment was locked, how did you get in?
Phryne: I hit the lock with me shoe.
Jack: Your shoe seems to have the ballistic capabilities of a .38 revolver.
Phryne: Fancy that.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hawaii missile alert
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:04 am 
Offline
Legendary Overlord
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:17 am
Posts: 5092
Scott Brim wrote:
Nightwatch2 wrote:
And their “fix” of adding a “just kidding” button while leaving the rest is setting themselves up for repeat performances.

Utterly incompetent insanity!!!!

:facepalm:

Nightwatch, if you've been around the block in creating IT systems for public agencies, you understand that more often than not, the main objective of building the system is simply to spend money.

I can tell you from personal experience what kind of pushback you will get from senior management if you as an IT system developer point out that serious flaws exist in a user interface or in an approach to handling the meaning and content of data, as the user community will interpret it, and more than a few hundred dollars of time and effort is needed to fix the problem.


I had a hand in developing missile warning user interfaces and integrating Army surface to air missile systems with Air Force air surveillance and intercept control systems. And data links.

Does that count?

Yes, an objective of some was to burn through available funds and get a supplemental to complete the project. Never was mine. My focus was always to get the scope dope what he needed and kill the bad guys. My projects always worked.

A key parameter was separation of Real from Test and Exercise. The Hawaiian interface violates every rule we had.

_________________
Maybe the problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hawaii missile alert
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 5812
Nightwatch2 wrote:
A key parameter was separation of Real from Test and Exercise. The Hawaiian interface violates every rule we had.

As the USS William D Porter knows all too well....

_________________
(English doesn't) just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.--James D. Nicoll


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hawaii missile alert
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:54 pm
Posts: 209
Wonder if there were any nuke armed vessels at Pearl Harbor at the time? 8-)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hawaii missile alert
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:28 pm 
Offline
Legendary Overlord
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:17 am
Posts: 5092
KDahm wrote:
Nightwatch2 wrote:
A key parameter was separation of Real from Test and Exercise. The Hawaiian interface violates every rule we had.

As the USS William D Porter knows all too well....


:lol: :D :lol: :D

_________________
Maybe the problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hawaii missile alert
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:02 am
Posts: 16310
Location: Planet Earth, Milky Way, Universe
Gott in Himmel! :facepalm:

A password for the Hawaii emergency agency was hiding in a public photo, written on a Post-it note

A false alert warning of an inbound missile was broadcast in Hawaii on Saturday.
Since then, people have discovered that a photo taken in Hawaii's Emergency Management Agency for a news article in July includes a sticky note with a password.
Hawaii says the alert was sent was because "an employee pushed the wrong button," not because of a hack, but the photo has sparked criticism about the agency's level of security.

PHOTO AT: http://www.businessinsider.com/hawaii-e ... ?r=UK&IR=T

_________________
I am Charlie


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hawaii missile alert
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:13 pm
Posts: 14537
Location: PCE(R)-857
Eric wrote:
Gott in Himmel! :facepalm:

A password for the Hawaii emergency agency was hiding in a public photo, written on a Post-it note

A false alert warning of an inbound missile was broadcast in Hawaii on Saturday.
Since then, people have discovered that a photo taken in Hawaii's Emergency Management Agency for a news article in July includes a sticky note with a password.
Hawaii says the alert was sent was because "an employee pushed the wrong button," not because of a hack, but the photo has sparked criticism about the agency's level of security.

PHOTO AT: http://www.businessinsider.com/hawaii-e ... ?r=UK&IR=T

Why is anybody surprised?

The frequent password changes and structure mean people write them down. Especially if you have a different password for every system and only log in every few months.

Time spent fumbling for a password delays getting the word out.

_________________
Jack: So, if the compartment was locked, how did you get in?
Phryne: I hit the lock with me shoe.
Jack: Your shoe seems to have the ballistic capabilities of a .38 revolver.
Phryne: Fancy that.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hawaii missile alert
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:33 pm 
Offline
Legendary Overlord
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:17 am
Posts: 5092
Johnnie Lyle wrote:
Eric wrote:
Gott in Himmel! :facepalm:

A password for the Hawaii emergency agency was hiding in a public photo, written on a Post-it note

A false alert warning of an inbound missile was broadcast in Hawaii on Saturday.
Since then, people have discovered that a photo taken in Hawaii's Emergency Management Agency for a news article in July includes a sticky note with a password.
Hawaii says the alert was sent was because "an employee pushed the wrong button," not because of a hack, but the photo has sparked criticism about the agency's level of security.

PHOTO AT: http://www.businessinsider.com/hawaii-e ... ?r=UK&IR=T

Why is anybody surprised?

The frequent password changes and structure mean people write them down. Especially if you have a different password for every system and only log in every few months.

Time spent fumbling for a password delays getting the word out.


does not make it right or acceptable - but to leave the paper in plain view while taking photos for the media?!! :facepalm:

old war story. at Offutt AFB the SP's picked up a notebook at the air terminal that had a page with a bunch of numbers on it. looked like combinations.
hmmmmm, wonder what these could be to. The name on the book traced to someone at NEACP.
sooooo....
The SP's went over to the security gate outside of NEACP and tried the 1st number on the high-security gate into the high-security compound.
it opened
Called the Col to come tag along....
they then proceeded to go to each cypher locked door in turn in the order in the book.
each one opened
they then correlated what looked like safe numbers to the combinations.
each one opened

(now think about what might have been in those safes.)

a Bad Day at The Ranch ensued......

The point is well taken that frequent changes of passwords on multiple systems tends to be confusing and the average joe tends to write things down until memorized. those scraps of paper are then classified at the level of the material in the safe or on the system and need to be protected. Leaving papers lying around with passwords/combinations is

REALLY DANGEROUS

and can lead to "significant career implications". To leave something posted on a screen in full view of the press and published has to rank as about the stupidest, most utterly incompetent idiocy imaginable. Publishing the password in plain view on a post it note means that there was in reality no security on that system at all. There might as well have been no password.

oh by the way, a group password violates security rules. There are supposed to be individual log-ins and passwords on most government systems.

I had to log into multiple systems at multiple classification levels. I never wrote down passwords.

everyone involved in that utterly incompetent organization in Hawaii needs to be fired.

_________________
Maybe the problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hawaii missile alert
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:13 pm
Posts: 14537
Location: PCE(R)-857
You're also the product of trillions of dollars in infrastructure and training, hundreds of dedicated personnel and carte blanche to get anything you want. You also own, or at least have your organization in control of, pretty much everything. Finally, you were the top priority, not an afterthought.

That changes the playing field a lot.

Respectfully, you're rolling around in a top end race car, with full management team, sneering at a guy with his bumper held on by a bungie cord.

_________________
Jack: So, if the compartment was locked, how did you get in?
Phryne: I hit the lock with me shoe.
Jack: Your shoe seems to have the ballistic capabilities of a .38 revolver.
Phryne: Fancy that.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hawaii missile alert
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:38 pm
Posts: 1177
Place I work has passwords up the ying yang. Your general login password combination is a joke because of the legacy applications (30+ years old) we're still using but that's another story. When I first start working there we had group ID's for various floors because you had to be able to log in the computer without disturbing the applications running. We found out that the usernames/password were being written on the white boards in the break rooms. You take said combination to any computer in the campus and log in you could access all kinds of things we didn't want to get out Security nightmare of course and when HIPAA, the medical data privacy act, came around it became a legal nightmare.

Things have gotten a lot better I'm happy to say. Although we did have a couple of people running gaming server, warcraft I think, on our system. That was a 'they did what and for how long?!?' moment.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hawaii missile alert
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:35 am
Posts: 5882
Location: Sweden
It's not like it's impossible for an organization with a smaller budget than the US DoD to create something coherent.

The Swedish siren system basically consist of three control components.
Image

The first is a PC with a graphical interface, where you select which type of sire signal to send, to which sirens and so on. All sirens are displayed on a map with status and immediate feedback if one or more fails during a signal activation.
Image
Image

The second is a key turning console, even if the PC would malfunction/be hacked it is supposed to not be possible to activate the without the physical key being turned. The key turning is the final step following the setup via the graphical interface.
Image

The third is the larger red box, this is a backup system to the PC interface. In a situation where the PC fails or is compromised this ruggedized console allows for the sirens to be activate anyway, albeit in a bit more cumbersome of a way. It too has a key turning function for activation.
Image

The transmission from the control point to the individual sirens is via the emergency services encrypted digital radio network, RAKEL.

All this naturally does not mean that the systen is immune from mistakes by the operators but the risk of external malicious activation is significantly reduced.

_________________
The Night Watch - A Star Trek Story


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hawaii missile alert
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:13 pm
Posts: 14537
Location: PCE(R)-857
No, it's not impossible.

But it does require a lot of people, time and resources to build and maintain. Which ultimately boils down to political commitment.

For a lot of EM stuff stateside, the politicians want it done now and cheap, or have processes that make getting it done in the time necessary nigh impossible, so we resort to quick and dirty to have something.

_________________
Jack: So, if the compartment was locked, how did you get in?
Phryne: I hit the lock with me shoe.
Jack: Your shoe seems to have the ballistic capabilities of a .38 revolver.
Phryne: Fancy that.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hawaii missile alert
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:35 am
Posts: 5882
Location: Sweden
Johnnie Lyle wrote:
No, it's not impossible.

But it does require a lot of people, time and resources to build and maintain. Which ultimately boils down to political commitment.

For a lot of EM stuff stateside, the politicians want it done now and cheap, or have processes that make getting it done in the time necessary nigh impossible, so we resort to quick and dirty to have something.

Little bit surprising to me that the department of homeland security hasn't tried to coordinate something. Like, commission a system architecture that local organizations can then buy from them. Would probably save some money overall and hopefully get a better product than if everyone cobbles something together themselves.

_________________
The Night Watch - A Star Trek Story


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hawaii missile alert
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:13 pm
Posts: 14537
Location: PCE(R)-857
Micael wrote:
Johnnie Lyle wrote:
No, it's not impossible.

But it does require a lot of people, time and resources to build and maintain. Which ultimately boils down to political commitment.

For a lot of EM stuff stateside, the politicians want it done now and cheap, or have processes that make getting it done in the time necessary nigh impossible, so we resort to quick and dirty to have something.

Little bit surprising to me that the department of homeland security hasn't tried to coordinate something. Like, commission a system architecture that local organizations can then buy from them. Would probably save some money overall and hopefully get a better product than if everyone cobbles something together themselves.

There are multiple competing systems, with multiple competing owners who guard them jealously. Plus all of the multiple issues inherent in any notification system.

_________________
Jack: So, if the compartment was locked, how did you get in?
Phryne: I hit the lock with me shoe.
Jack: Your shoe seems to have the ballistic capabilities of a .38 revolver.
Phryne: Fancy that.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hawaii missile alert
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 10:18 am
Posts: 7021
Location: Where the grass is green and the girls are pretty
Johnnie Lyle wrote:
You're also the product of trillions of dollars in infrastructure and training, hundreds of dedicated personnel and carte blanche to get anything you want. You also own, or at least have your organization in control of, pretty much everything. Finally, you were the top priority, not an afterthought.

That changes the playing field a lot.

Respectfully, you're rolling around in a top end race car, with full management team, sneering at a guy with his bumper held on by a bungie cord.


The key ingredient, though, is the desire of every single person in the organization to master the mission, and to execute it flawlessly, because the price tag for screwing up is a s***-show like what happened. That sort of basic professionalism can't be purchased with all the money in the world, and trillions of dollars in infrastructure and training can't make up for its lack.

_________________
"The double tap is a myth. Shoot the threat until it goes away. Only then will his soul find peace." -- Dalai Lama


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Hawaii missile alert
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:32 pm
Posts: 6630
Location: Currently 3rd Rock from the sun
Micael wrote:
Johnnie Lyle wrote:
No, it's not impossible.

But it does require a lot of people, time and resources to build and maintain. Which ultimately boils down to political commitment.

For a lot of EM stuff stateside, the politicians want it done now and cheap, or have processes that make getting it done in the time necessary nigh impossible, so we resort to quick and dirty to have something.

Little bit surprising to me that the department of homeland security hasn't tried to coordinate something. Like, commission a system architecture that local organizations can then buy from them. Would probably save some money overall and hopefully get a better product than if everyone cobbles something together themselves.


One system makes it easier to hack. Given how often the Feds are hacked, I'm not sure that's good.

Also during the last election, Homeland Security tried hacking various states election systems. I never did hear a good reason why.

_________________
Faugh a Ballagh


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 104 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Beowulf and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group