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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:56 pm 
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Per news flash:
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BREAKING: Navy: Commanding officers in 2 deadly ship collisions in Pacific are charged with negligent homicide.

I guess someone’s had enough.
Time to encourager les autres.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:08 pm 
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Micael wrote:
Per news flash:
Quote:
BREAKING: Navy: Commanding officers in 2 deadly ship collisions in Pacific are charged with negligent homicide.

I guess someone’s had enough.
Time to encourager les autres.

Or someone wants to be seen doing something without actually doing anything.

If you see charges at DESRON and 7th Fleet, sackings at CinCPAC, the training and evaluating commands, and ACTUAL BETTER TRAINING PROGRAMS, then yes.

Without that, it's just a nastier vetsion of "if **** happens, we're going to blame you."

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:56 pm 
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Ouch.
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NEW: Executive officer of USS Fitzgerald, Cmdr. Sean Babbitt, found guilty of dereliction of duty at NJP and reprimanded in connection with ship collision. Navy has set dates for Article 32 hearings for other officers.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:05 pm 
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Micael wrote:
Ouch.
Quote:
NEW: Executive officer of USS Fitzgerald, Cmdr. Sean Babbitt, found guilty of dereliction of duty at NJP and reprimanded in connection with ship collision. Navy has set dates for Article 32 hearings for other officers.


Which makes me wonder if the COs got offered a deal and told 'em to go pound rock salt. And you also have to believe that the defense JAGs will have a field day with discovery, especially when they start focusing on the emphasis on social actions training instead of actual, you know, running-the-boat stuff.

Mike

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:09 pm 
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MikeKozlowski wrote:
Which makes me wonder if the COs got offered a deal and told 'em to go pound rock salt. And you also have to believe that the defense JAGs will have a field day with discovery, especially when they start focusing on the emphasis on social actions training instead of actual, you know, running-the-boat stuff. Mike
Well, yes. But .....

Those officers were in command. They had to have known that from a variety of perspectives, their operational situation with lack of proper bridge team training and experience, plus a variety of other readiness issues that were unresolved aboard their vessels, meant that a more-than-normal hazardous situation existed and that high vigilance and exceptionally close attention to the operational details was necessary.

It was their responsibility to maintain this exceptionally high vigilance over the operational details, and they didn't fulfill that responsibility.

Regarding the specific charges, isn't that the core issue here? Remembering what Admiral Rickover often said about the true meaning of responsibility, what would he have said about each of these officer's performance as individuals, separate and apart from what is normally expected of any officer who has accepted command responsibility?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:45 pm 
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Scott Brim wrote:
MikeKozlowski wrote:
Which makes me wonder if the COs got offered a deal and told 'em to go pound rock salt. And you also have to believe that the defense JAGs will have a field day with discovery, especially when they start focusing on the emphasis on social actions training instead of actual, you know, running-the-boat stuff. Mike


Regarding the specific charges, isn't that the core issue here? Remembering what Admiral Rickover often said about the true meaning of responsibility, what would he have said about each of these officer's performance as individuals, separate and apart from what is normally expected of any officer who has accepted command responsibility?


Not just the meaning of responsibility, but also of irresponsibility:

The sense of responsibility for doing a job right seems to be declining. In fact the phrase "I am not responsible" has become a somewhat standard response in our society to complaints of a breakdown in the system. This response is a semantic error. Generally what a person means is: "I cannot be held legally liable." Yet, from a moral or ethical point of view the statement is quite true. The person or organization taking this way out is truly not responsible; he is irresponsible.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:37 am 
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Scott Brim wrote:
MikeKozlowski wrote:
Which makes me wonder if the COs got offered a deal and told 'em to go pound rock salt. And you also have to believe that the defense JAGs will have a field day with discovery, especially when they start focusing on the emphasis on social actions training instead of actual, you know, running-the-boat stuff. Mike
Well, yes. But .....

Those officers were in command. They had to have known that from a variety of perspectives, their operational situation with lack of proper bridge team training and experience, plus a variety of other readiness issues that were unresolved aboard their vessels, meant that a more-than-normal hazardous situation existed and that high vigilance and exceptionally close attention to the operational details was necessary.

It was their responsibility to maintain this exceptionally high vigilance over the operational details, and they didn't fulfill that responsibility.

Regarding the specific charges, isn't that the core issue here? Remembering what Admiral Rickover often said about the true meaning of responsibility, what would he have said about each of these officer's performance as individuals, separate and apart from what is normally expected of any officer who has accepted command responsibility?

The question is whether they are being fried so others, equally or even more culpable, skate.

Like the admirals who said "yeah, we know the kids can't steer, but we don't give a damn. Sail." For years.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:11 am 
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Scott Brim wrote:
Well, yes. But .....

Those officers were in command. They had to have known that from a variety of perspectives, their operational situation with lack of proper bridge team training and experience, plus a variety of other readiness issues that were unresolved aboard their vessels, meant that a more-than-normal hazardous situation existed and that high vigilance and exceptionally close attention to the operational details was necessary.

It was their responsibility to maintain this exceptionally high vigilance over the operational details, and they didn't fulfill that responsibility.


Given what I learned about the slipped standards of training over the last year's I can't help but think this is a case of the smallest gear in the box as we say in Germany. If superiors are to a large degree responsible for actions of their subordinates that should also apply to the superiors of the COs.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:26 pm 
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M.Becker wrote:
Scott Brim wrote:
Well, yes. But .....

Those officers were in command. They had to have known that from a variety of perspectives, their operational situation with lack of proper bridge team training and experience, plus a variety of other readiness issues that were unresolved aboard their vessels, meant that a more-than-normal hazardous situation existed and that high vigilance and exceptionally close attention to the operational details was necessary.

It was their responsibility to maintain this exceptionally high vigilance over the operational details, and they didn't fulfill that responsibility.


Given what I learned about the slipped standards of training over the last year's I can't help but think this is a case of the smallest gear in the box as we say in Germany. If superiors are to a large degree responsible for actions of their subordinates that should also apply to the superiors of the COs.


I agree. So far many of those superiors are losing their jobs, but not being court martialed.

(notable exception - Fat Leonard)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Nightwatch2 wrote:
I agree. So far many of those superiors are losing their jobs, but not being court martialed.

(notable exception - Fat Leonard)

You'll get into much more trouble stealing things than by getting people killed.

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