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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:54 pm 
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viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21604&start=440#p298947

I have not followed the discussion continuously but that's what went wrong? No more SWOS since 2003 (and a few other things) with the full effect only now being felt as enough old hands are gone and replaced by 'Ersatz'-officers.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:17 pm 
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OSCSSW wrote:
Poohbah wrote:
Johnnie Lyle wrote:
I bet the Senior Chief a decent single malt we're going to find the root cause of the Navy's seamanship deficiency is forgetting that the sea is also a heartless, unforgiving, jealous, cast iron murderess.


Wisdom I picked up from a Senior Chief on the Coral Sea, so good I wrote it down: "The difference between the sea and the enemy is that the enemy is only SOMETIMES trying to kill you--he might be on smoke break or something--but the sea is ALWAYS trying to kill you. We are interlopers in the realm of Poseidon. Death at sea may be the penalty for a lack of grace, for presumption, or for simple stupidity."


Yup she's a cruel, cold hearted B!TCH
but
the mark of a real Sailorman is to love her even when she's trying to kill you.
The day you stop loving her is the day you should swallow the anchor because she really works overtime to kill her former lovers.

Go Figure
:roll:

And that differs from dating women how, exactly? :p

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:02 am 
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Johnnie Lyle wrote:
OSCSSW wrote:
Poohbah wrote:
Wisdom I picked up from a Senior Chief on the Coral Sea, so good I wrote it down: "The difference between the sea and the enemy is that the enemy is only SOMETIMES trying to kill you--he might be on smoke break or something--but the sea is ALWAYS trying to kill you. We are interlopers in the realm of Poseidon. Death at sea may be the penalty for a lack of grace, for presumption, or for simple stupidity."


Yup she's a cruel, cold hearted B!TCH
but
the mark of a real Sailorman is to love her even when she's trying to kill you.
The day you stop loving her is the day you should swallow the anchor because she really works overtime to kill her former lovers.

Go Figure
:roll:

And that differs from dating women how, exactly? :p


Johnnie, there is a good Christian reason I don't give advice to the lovelorn.
Given my track record BEFORE I met the Crimp, your infinitely better off without it.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:57 am 
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And that differs from dating women how, exactly? :p

The sea will kill you without caring. Women will do so deliberately and with malice.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:11 pm 
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KDahm wrote:
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And that differs from dating women how, exactly? :p

The sea will kill you without caring. Women will do so deliberately and with malice.

Rather depends on your view of King Neptune. Lots of sea deities were very much imbued with spite and malice.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:23 am 
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More dirt emerging from underneath the rug...
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US Navy worked around its own standards to keep ships underway: sources
By: David B. Larter   56 minutes ago
58019


WASHINGTON — The U.S. Navy’s top officer in the Pacific is reviewing a program that allowed ships from the Japan-based U.S. 7th Fleet to operate with expired certifications amid a wide-ranging probe into two deadly collisions that killed 17 sailors and caused untold hundreds of millions of dollars in damage to two destroyers, three sources with knowledge of the decision told Defense News.

Adm. Scott Swift has taken on direct supervision of the “risk assessment management plan” program, a system otherwise known as RAMP that allowed the local destroyer squadron, fleet trainers and stateside commanders to keep their ships on patrol even if their qualifications in critical areas such as damage control, navigation and flight deck operations had lapsed.

The U.S. Government Accountability Office is set to testify Thursday that nearly 40 percent of the Japan-based cruisers and destroyers were operating without valid warfare certifications.


The widespread use of the RAMP system alarmed Navy officials when they began examining readiness issues inside the fleet, raising questions why fleet leaders tolerated the degraded readiness that had taken root in 7th Fleet, even as the demand for its strained ships is at historic highs. And while it’s impossible to draw a straight line between degraded readiness and a series of damaging accidents in the Pacific, experts said the issues are a symptom of an overstressed fleet taking too many risks to meet its demands.

It’s unclear when the RAMP system was put in place, but several retired senior Navy officials were unaware of the program when asked about it. What has become clear, however, is that the system was used routinely and with increasing frequency in 7th Fleet over the past two years.

Now that system is under direct scrutiny by Swift and is part of the inquiry led by fleet boss Adm. Phil Davidson into how 7th Fleet operates.


The GAO will testify before members of the House Armed Services Committee that the system appears to have taken firm root since its 2015 report that showed that the Navy was shorting its readiness and training in 7th Fleet in exchange for increased presence in the region.

“This represents more than a fivefold increase in the percentage of expired warfare certifications for these ships since our May 2015 report,” GAO Defense Capabilities and Management Director John H. Pendleton’s testimony read, according to a copy obtained by Defense News sister publication Military Times.

CNN first reported the GAO’s testimony concerning the rate of lapsed certifications in 7th Fleet.

Ships in 7th Fleet are considered deployed at all times and achieve their certifications in a different manner than ships stateside. A destroyer in San Diego, for example, returns from an overseas deployment and begins a 36-month cycle where the ship is maintained and the crew is trained in increasingly intense operations until the ship is fully qualified and sent back overseas.

But in Japan, qualifications happen on a 24-month revolving basis, according to Navy officials. If the ship is unable to maintain its qualifications — engineering operation, anti-surface warfare, anti-submarine warfare, etc. — the squadron commander and/or task force commander then works with the ship’s commanding officer and fleet trainers to get the ship back on track. That system is overseen by the 7th Fleet commander and the top surface warfare officer, Naval Surface Force Pacific, in this case Vice Adm. Thomas Rowden.

But those kinds of fixes are intended to be temporary and not a standard operating procedure as it appears to have become, said Bryan Clark, a retired submariner and analyst with the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments.

“It’s the kind of thing you’d want to put in for a temporary period for an uptick in demand, then return to the standards of training,” he said. “So it seems like the Navy went into this as a kind of mitigation strategy and it seems like it‘s sort of became the operational model they’ve been working off of for some time now — at least the last two years.”

The issue of strained readiness among Japan’s high-operational tempo ships is not new and comes in ebbs and flows, according to several sources familiar with 7th Fleet operations who spoke on background. The issues, however, have become even more pronounced as the threat of a nuclear exchange with North Korea has spiked. Most of the surface ships in Japan are equipped to try and shoot down missiles fired at allies or even U.S. territories such as Guam.

There is a standing requirement that the Navy has a set number of ballistic missile defense shooters underway at any given time as a check on North Korea. Both the destroyers Fitzgerald and McCain are ballistic missile defense-enabled ships.

The workarounds in 7th Fleet are yet another sign of an alarming decline in readiness triggered by a Navy too small for what it’s being asked to do, said Jerry Hendrix, a retired Navy captain and analyst at the Center for a New American Security.

“The news reports about the waivers being used to keep ships underway are deeply troubling, and it highlights the real challenge of maintaining readiness in 7th Fleet and in the Pacific,” Hendrix said. “It also highlights that the fleet is not large enough to do every step of the process in getting ships qualified while maintaining its operational commitments.”

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:44 pm 
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So what this amounts to is the same train of thought that brought down Challenger.

"This is the standard. We can waive it this once. ... We got away with that, we can make the waivers standard."

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:21 am 
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GAWD! Reading this as somebody completely detached from the matter apart from being a former sailor makes my gorge rise. I could puke in a circle reading this. Whoever signed off on this willfilly criminal negligence deseves to be shot with bullets made out of cat droppings, the bodies desecrated ad then fired into deep space. Or fed to hogs and then the hogs fired into deep space.

Damn, I am furious. This is even worse than I thought.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:05 am 
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"If we cannot have the navy estimates of our policy, then let us have the policy of our navy estimates." -- Lieutenant Ambroise Baudry, French Navy

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:49 pm 
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Could this incident be relevant ??

http://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/2 ... -illusion/

quote:

The MAIB investigation identified that the outbound City of Rotterdam had moved into the path of the inbound ferry, but this had not been corrected because the pilot on board had become disoriented after looking through an off-axis window on the semi-circular shaped bridge.

“The pilot was under the impression that the vessel was heading to the south, whereas its heading was not altered significantly beyond the axis of the channel until collision was imminent,” MAIB informed.

The report also shows that the interventions made by VTS were not “sufficiently robust” to make the pilot appreciate that more aggressive action was required to avoid the developing collision situation.

Moreover, the absence of any challenge or intervention by City of Rotterdam’s bridge team until collision was imminent indicates an over-reliance on the pilot and a breakdown in the bridge resource management on that vessel. In addition, although Primula Seaways’ bridge team had identified the risk of collision and had taken action to clarify the pilot’s intentions, substantial action to avoid the collision was taken too late to be effective.
/

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:14 am 
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More heads roll.
Quote:
Admiral, Captain Fired as Investigation into Ship Collisions Continues

by Hope Hodge Seck18 Sep 2017

Damage to the portside is visible as the Guided-missile destroyer USS John S. McCain steers towards Changi Naval Base, Republic of Singapore, following a collision with the merchant vessel Alnic MC on Aug. 21, 2017. (U.S. Navy photo/Joshua Fulton)

More leaders are being removed from their posts as the Navy continues to investigate the cause of two deadly ship collisions in the Pacific this summer that resulted in the deaths of 17 sailors.

Vice Adm. Phil Sawyer, commander of U.S. Seventh Fleet, on Monday relieved two senior officers: Rear Adm. Charles Williams, the commander of Task Force 70, and Capt. Jeffrey Bennett, commander of Destroyer Squadron 15. The officers were relieved due to a loss of confidence in their command, according to a brief announcement from U.S. 7th Fleet.

Rear Adm. Marc Dalton, currently commander of Task Force 76, will take command of Task Force 70, which oversees theater surface warfare and integrated air missile defense for 7th Fleet in the Pacific. Capt. Jonathan Duffy, deputy commander of DESRON 15 will take command of the squadron, officials said.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:35 pm 
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Meanwhile, it sounds like it's not just the Navy that has some catching up to do.
Quote:
Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force asks commanders to resurrect chem/bio warfare training at Pacific theater bases outside Korea

Quote:
CMSAF Kaleth Wright says PACAF bases beyond Korea "got out of the business" of providing Ability to Survive and Operate (ATSO) training

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:32 pm 
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some on target comments from a good friend and shipmate

I will add to this SURFPAC and SURFLANT as the type commanders shoulder a lot of the responsibility for this. The Type Commanders are the Organize, Train and Equip commands.

The consistent thread that keeps coming up in all of this is - TRAINING. our young kids were not trained and instead shoved out to the fleet to learn on the job. It appears that the USN may have failed a whole generation of surface warriors.

another thread that keeps coming is - INTEGRITY

so when "with new HQ in Singapore" pops up a whole lot of red flags pops up too. That is the command where a generation of senior naval officers are now under criminal indictment for corruption (See "Fat Leonard")

can this get any worse?

___________________________________________________

SEVENTHFLT POA released today a proposal by CINCPACFLT and new COM7THFLT to re-create “Naval Surface Group Western Pacific” as part of the framework for fixing the rash of collision at sea problems. (see below)

This begs for some historical perspective of the “re-inventing the wheel” sort:

Prior to 1992, OPCON and administrative support of all WestPac deployed surface units, including both combatants and logistic support, was exercised by CTF73/75 Commander, Naval Surface Group Western Pacific, from Subic Bay.

In April, 1992, with the closure of Subic Bay, operational control and administrative responsivities of CTF73/75 associated with CTF 75’s 30-or-so Westpac-deployed surface combatants shifted to the 7th Fleet Battle Force commander, CTF70.

Later in 1992, the remainder of CTF75 staff was re-designated as CTF73, Commander, Logistics Group Western Pacific (COMLOG WESTPAC), with new HQ in Singapore. CTF73 had OPCON for rotationally deployed Combat Logistics Force ships, Military Sealift Command ships and Maritime Prepositioning Ships operating in 7th Fleet, but not for WestPac surface combatants.

The historical backdrop for these changes involved the end of the Cold war, and a significant drawdown of US Naval Forces, plus the 1991 collapse of the Subic Bay lease-renewal talks with the new government in the Philippines, and the June, 1991 Mt Pinatubo eruption which annihilated Clark AFB.
--------------
Over the weekend, both CTF70 and the DESRON 15 commanders were both relieved, and the previous 1992 “Naval Surface Group Western Pacific” structure is now being resurrected as part of the organizational fixes. This also raises 3rd Fleet training & readiness issues for MCCAIN & FITZGERALD and other surface combatants preparing for deployment.

The 1992 PACFLT division of logistic support OPCON from surface combatant OPCON very likely was mirrored in other fleets too at the time. I wonder if similar remedial re-resurrections are now being considered in other numbered fleets as well. In 1992, the practical issues occasioned by the closure of Subic Bay (availability of sufficient berthing facilities, manpower requirements & status of forces agreements, etc) may have factored most prominently in the decisions at the time, but history suggests that surface force functionality seems to have suffered as a result.

Makes you wonder whose idea it was anyway, and what else they changed along the way. ADM Frank Kelso was CNO at the time, and ADM Jerome Johnson was VCNO, but that sort of decision would have originated at much lower levels within CINCPACFLT staff, based on fleet recommendations, and then worked their way up at OP-09,OP-03 and OP-06 levels.
_______________________________________________________________________

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:39 pm 
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Micael wrote:
Meanwhile, it sounds like it's not just the Navy that has some catching up to do.
Quote:
Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force asks commanders to resurrect chem/bio warfare training at Pacific theater bases outside Korea

Quote:
CMSAF Kaleth Wright says PACAF bases beyond Korea "got out of the business" of providing Ability to Survive and Operate (ATSO) training



Can confirm. Was on Okinawa from 2011-2016. First two years, 2-4 exercises per year (first part would be simulating troop and acft movement, processing through lines, etc. 2nd part was combat sim to include MOPP training). Last 3 years they tapered off dramatically. I don't think there was a single one in 2016.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:45 pm 
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S. Murray wrote:
Micael wrote:
Meanwhile, it sounds like it's not just the Navy that has some catching up to do.
Quote:
Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force asks commanders to resurrect chem/bio warfare training at Pacific theater bases outside Korea

Quote:
CMSAF Kaleth Wright says PACAF bases beyond Korea "got out of the business" of providing Ability to Survive and Operate (ATSO) training



Can confirm. Was on Okinawa from 2011-2016. First two years, 2-4 exercises per year (first part would be simulating troop and acft movement, processing through lines, etc. 2nd part was combat sim to include MOPP training). Last 3 years they tapered off dramatically. I don't think there was a single one in 2016.


Seems reasonable. After all, Okinawa is well beyond any threat range.....

(Sarcasm alert)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:30 am 
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S. Murray wrote:
Micael wrote:
Meanwhile, it sounds like it's not just the Navy that has some catching up to do.
Quote:
Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force asks commanders to resurrect chem/bio warfare training at Pacific theater bases outside Korea

Quote:
CMSAF Kaleth Wright says PACAF bases beyond Korea "got out of the business" of providing Ability to Survive and Operate (ATSO) training



Can confirm. Was on Okinawa from 2011-2016. First two years, 2-4 exercises per year (first part would be simulating troop and acft movement, processing through lines, etc. 2nd part was combat sim to include MOPP training). Last 3 years they tapered off dramatically. I don't think there was a single one in 2016.



Oh, that ain't good at all, especially the 'no exercises' part.

Guessing though that all the Social Actions training was in compliance.

Mike

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:41 am 
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MikeKozlowski wrote:
Oh, that ain't good at all, especially the 'no exercises' part.

Guessing though that all the Social Actions training was in compliance.

Mike


If you're not planning on fighting (or winning) a war, why do you need warfighting training?

However, interaction with the proles people cannot be avoided, so diversity & equality training cannot be cut.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:09 am 
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Nightwatch2 wrote:
S. Murray wrote:
Can confirm. Was on Okinawa from 2011-2016. First two years, 2-4 exercises per year (first part would be simulating troop and acft movement, processing through lines, etc. 2nd part was combat sim to include MOPP training). Last 3 years they tapered off dramatically. I don't think there was a single one in 2016.


Seems reasonable. After all, Okinawa is well beyond any threat range.....

(Sarcasm alert)

Was that last line for my benefit, shipmate? ;)

I'm in a very good mood this AM. Last night's dinner went very well indeed.
Damn Good man, great creds, great fit with excellent connections where we will need them most.
(Enough said)
Best part is he is well vetted by a woman I absolutely trust, professionally that is (long story).
The formal offer goes to him today and when, not IF he accepts, my life will become my own again, accept for quarterly and year end closings and a few other conditions on my equity deal. OK I can't just jump ship but he will now build his team and that means I'm out of the day to day weeds.

To celebrate I'm taking my Old Ensign out on Sally late morning for some Fall NE cruising.
NOAA weather says 16 to 18 kts off the Isle of Shoals with gust somewhat higher.
Should be feeling some of the outlying swells from the storms heading north. Sally will love it.

The Crimp and his 3rd wife get on very well (even if she is young enough to be the crimp's daughter)
and will spend the day doing whatever they do before meeting us at The Library for supper.

I love that place. It was where that Clinton loving A Hole Attorney paid off our bet. And did I make him pay!

I feel like an 18 year old RD3 with a 72 in Kao Shung!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:27 am 
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Craiglxviii wrote:
MikeKozlowski wrote:
Oh, that ain't good at all, especially the 'no exercises' part.

Guessing though that all the Social Actions training was in compliance.

Mike


If you're not planning on fighting (or winning) a war, why do you need warfighting training?

However, interaction with the proles people cannot be avoided, so diversity & equality training cannot be cut.


I thought we had established that the roots of the problem go back so far that the social engineering stuff had little impact as the damage had already been done?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:37 am 
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Jotun wrote:
Craiglxviii wrote:
MikeKozlowski wrote:
Oh, that ain't good at all, especially the 'no exercises' part.

Guessing though that all the Social Actions training was in compliance.

Mike


If you're not planning on fighting (or winning) a war, why do you need warfighting training?

However, interaction with the proles people cannot be avoided, so diversity & equality training cannot be cut.


I thought we had established that the roots of the problem go back so far that the social engineering stuff had little impact as the damage had already been done?


You are wrong there Jotun. WE established no such thing. Mike and Craig got it right. The REAL Root PROBLEM SOCIAL ENGINEERING , in the USN, goes back to while I was still on active duty. I transferred to CivLant in '95 and I had been dealing with this social engineering Bull sh!t for years.

I illustrated a case in point of when I was delayed in taking out a Det because the XO was scared sh!tless some staff A hole would fault him for not having all our EEO/sensitivity lectures up to date. That was in a Spec war unit which, at that time, had minimal social Engineering garbage to deal with. In the fleet and especially the shore commands it was much worse.

Am I getting through to you Jotun?

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