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 Post subject: The Salvation War FAQ
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:07 pm 
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Why does this FQ exist?

It started off in the TVtropes page with a discussion of the various tropes that appear in The Salvation War. A relatively small group of religious fundamentalists then appeared who started criticizing the story while painfully obviously not having read it. In fact a couple of them openly boasted that they hadn't read the story but knew it was all wrong anyway. They all showed a distressing lack of knowledge of the story itself or its contents. Having made complete fools of themselves, they then took to deleting the responses made to their comments in an effort to pretend that their complaints were unanswerable. Since the material they were deleting was interesting in its own right and a very valuable contribution to the Salvationverse, it was decided to preserve it in an FAQ where the vandals couldn;t delete it.

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How did a story like this get started


The question came up on SDN, what would happen if irrefutable proof came up that the whole human race was condemned to hell and always had been. That hope of salvation was a myth? The general consensus was tha humanity would fight, if for no other reason than its better to go down fighting than just lay down and die. Also, if they can interact with us, we must be able to interact with them - all we need to do is find out how. At that point, reading the thread, I got interested and started to think on how we would fight back (I'm a professional military analyst). Reading up on how daemons were supposed to fight and what they had to fight with, it resolved into "we can do that" , "we can do that", "they can't do that", "they wouldn't even understand how we did that". It quickly became apparent that daemons as described in the appropriate mythology don't stand a hope in hell against us. The phrase "hope in hell" set a light off in my head and so The Salvation War started. It caught on.

The thing to think about here is this. Virtually all our military advances have taken placed in the last few years. Taking a human lifetime as the traditional three score years and ten, one human lifetime takes us back to 1939. At that time battleships still ruled the sea, the best fighters were 300mph aircraft armed with machine guns. Armies were still virtually all infantry that walked around armed with bolt-action rifles. Armored warfare and so on were untried concepts. At best, they could fight the daemon hordes on roughly even terms. Go back another human lifetime and we're in 1870. No aircraft, wooden warships powered by sails (if the crew are lucky, with steam assistance) and armed with smoothbore muzzle-loading cannon form the bulk of the world's navies. Most armies have muzzle-loading muskets and smooth-bore direct line-of-sight artillery. The Daemons will walk all over them. Back when the mythologies were written, those authoring them gave the daemons the most frightful weapons they could imagine. To us, now, those weapons are jokes, pathetic and feeble things that we can virtually ignore while we slaughter those who carry them with almost impunity. And we've gone from there to here in two human lifetimes. What will humanity's weaponry look like in another two lifetimes? The very thought should be terrifying.

Nearly all of Armageddon??? is about the people involved and how they adapt to what is happening around/to them. Even the scenes set in battle are focussed on the people and the weapons are described only in terms of what they do to people. The daemons are the most affected, primarily because they are the ones faced with the unimaginable. As humans, we don't need to imagine what salvo rocket launchers, nerve gas, high explosives, landmines, rifle bullets etc do to their victims because we know. We do it to each other all the time. To somebody with a bronze age mindset, its horrible and unimaginable. Something completely unknown and beyond any form of understanding. Most of Armageddon is about the Daemons coming to grips with that and what it means. The humans end the story much as they started, just sickened by the slaughter they're inflicting yet grimly determined to keep on inflicting it until their enemy (no longer Daemons) gives up. The daemons change incredibly, read how Memnon enters the story and how he leaves it. He's gone through an epiphany and he's done a heelfaceturn. Once a creature of horrific evil, he's seen where that leads and is seeking a different path - as is the whole of Hell itself.

The fighting sections of the book (actually about a third of the total) do two things, one is to provide the impetus for the character development, the other is to tell people what weapons do to their victims. Amateurs are all too free with their recommendations to use weapons (eg "Stop illegal immigration by setting minefields along the border") without understanding what those weapons do. So, I tried to make it clear that weapon effects aren't nice neat little clean departures but a hideously brutal and cataclysmic way to die. There is a very good reason why most people on a battlefield die screaming. People say 'war is hell", Armageddon makes it clear its far worse than that. The way humans kill their enemies fills daemons with terror, that's worth thinking about as well.

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Where does Hell get its light from? I know that sounds silly, but if they're basically in a cave with red clouds above, is the only light coming from the volcanic rivers, or is there some exceedingly weak star up 'above'? Or is there actually 'space' up there somewhere?


The simple answer is that nobody knows or understands it. The physical laws in hell are a bit different from Earth and scientists are only just getting a grip on how different The dull red light is one of the things they don't comprehend but they'er investigating it to find out. There are more confusions coming when they start to deal with Heaven, the physical laws of Heaven and Hell being the same. Hell is a Klein Jar, a uni-surface like a three-dimensional moebius strip. There's literally no way out except by creating a portal, hence the dreadful atmosphere. Once the supervolcano caldera blew, all the dust etc that got blown out had nowhere to go. However, the working hypothesis is that Universe-Two (the dimension that contains Heaven and Hell plus a lot else) is a contracting Universe just as ours is an expanding Universe. That contraction generates energy which provides light, supports life etc. Only a hypothesis at this point of course.

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Why 1000 AD for Heaven being shut off? I ask this because it feels...well, a little on the early side. I'm thinking in particular of some versions of Calvinism being in line with the deity in this world, and I'm surprised that Yahweh in there wasn't trying to get his foot back in the door (seeing as he seems rather preoccupied with it to care enough to send his Brown Note along).


This is an in-story character guess. The logic behind it is that in 1000AD there was a great surge of religious sentiment that something momentous was happening/was about to happen and the characters guess that was the gates of Heaven closing. That guess may be way, way wrong. It's quite possible that the gates of Heaven were never open except for a few select people. Or perhaps not. To be continued.......

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Is there any oil or coal in Hell? This has a feeling of relevance (as even if you never have to fight another war, Hell seems to be a big enough place that transportation will be an issue in the long run).


There's oil, coal and geothermal power in hell. The economic effects of the opening of Hell will be dealt with in the third book of the trilogy The Salvation War: The Lords Of War.

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The 90 billion number felt a bit on the high side. That's really the only Wall Banger I had with it, as I don't think there have been more than about 30-50 billion people in human history, and even the upper end of that range feels a bit of a stretch to me.


I used This estimate which gives a total of 106,456,367,669 people who have ever lived. The presumption is that around 10 percent went to Heaven and 90 percent went to Hell so a 90 billion total for souls is ballpark-right. Close enough for government work anyway.

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Why are there not an 'army of generals' emerging from the murk of Hell and taking over everything


One of the things I lay down for would-be contributers is that historical characters should be used very sparingly indeed. Preeferably not at all. In fact, in the printed version of TSW:A there will be only two historical characters appearing. There are two reasons for this. One is that it gets very cheesy, very quickly unless there's a good reason for them. GJC for example appears because he's used to show that a man who's generally regarded as the finest politician-general around is dependent on a modern lieutenant to advise him on what modern weaponry does and its tactical implications. That puts the daemons initial inability to cope in context (and the daemons aren't stupid, they adapt and adapt fast but not quite fast enough. The other reason is that to me its much more interesting to see how 'normal people' cope with events that place great demands upon them. Nobody is really very surprised if, for example, Napoleon, appears and does great things. But when a cattle-herder from 7th century Mongolia is put in a position when he has to do great things or get blotted out, then we have an interesting story.

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Why is there no dramatic tension. There is a complete lack of comflict. From the beginning, it was readily apparent that the demons were going to be smashed to a pulp. It's sort of akin to writing a story about a man clubbing a seal pup to death.


This whole "no conflict" complaint doesn't hold water on close examination. The conflict's there, it just isn't the obvious one. I think the objection to "lack of conflict" is based on people's expectation that the daemons are super-beings when any reasonable examination of the circumstances shows they are not. Simple question, how does a bronze-age army beat a modern mechanized army? Simple answer, they can't. In a straight firefight, its all over as soon as it starts. There is also a presumption that "superpowers = invincibility", that is that the possession of abnormal powers renders the bearer all-powerful compared with regular humans. In the Salvation War, its shown the the military significance of powers like throwing lightning bolts, being able to breath fire or fly is inconsequential.

The real conflict is between the ways people think; those who take things at face value and those who do not. Those who accept that something is and those who ask why? The book is full of conflict on many, many levels other than the obvious one. The investigation of the daemon's abilities is another version of conflict, it demonstrates that the humans don't throw up their arms and cry "magic" the way the daemons do when faced with something they don't understand, they watch, study and investigate, find clues and form theories that get progressively more accurate until the problem is solved. The whole story is about much more important things that who wins a battle.

The Salvation War is predictable only in the sense that the end is reasonably obvious as it is in most fiction. We know Sherlock Holmes will solve the mystery, we know that the cops in a TV show will catch the bad guy eventually. In fact in a good half of TV cop shows, the villain is revealed in the first five minutes; it's how he gets caught that's the real story. We know humans will win in Armageddon; given the circumstances they can hardly help but do so. The story is actually about the people who take part, just as it is in every story. Why invest in such a story? Why make Tora Tora Tora, the film about the attack on Pearl Harbor - do you seriously believe that people go to see that film not knowing that the US Fleet is about to get sunk? Or go to see "Midway" and not know the Japanese carriers are going to get sunk? Of course not, people got to see a story that is centered around the people who take part, just as The Salvation War is centered around the people who take part. The story is centered on the people who deal with that, how they cope with the knowledge that (on one side) there's a whole new field of science opening up and (on the other) that everything they believed about what and how they worked is false.

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Why exactly do the daemons fight a convential war. Before the start of the salvation war demons seemed to do nothing but torment random humans on a small scale and fight amongest themselves. The fact they have a standing army anagalous to a human bronze age army just seems odd. While I may have missed something I always got the idea the demons used subterfuge and kissing up to superiors to gain higher standing. So did the demonic counts, dukes, and such use their own legions in open battle against one another on a grand scale; and if not why is it that the demonic legions exist in their current state? i.e a giant mass that can be shot pieces by modern armies.


The basic scenario is a reflection of the situation as described in the Book of Revelation mixed up with human myths, legends and constant themes that appeared therein (ranging from legends such as Beowulf though to Tolkien. These all feature a final great battle for the Earth (hence Abigor's Army invading) and/or sieges with communities under assault by hideous, unnatural monsters (whether those monsters be daemons themselves, 'dragons' orcs and trolls, whatever). So, the end-time assault that was supposed to remove humans from play so to speak was a massive assault by a fearsome daemon army. Now, make no mistake, that army was fearsome by the standards of warfare up to as little as a hundred years ago. Two hundred years ago, it really would have run riot over anything that humanity could put against it - for example, can you imagine an Army from the Seven or Thirty Years War trying to stop one of Abigor's Legions let alone dozens of them? It would probably be a World War One Army before human forces had even a fighting chance of slowing Abigor down and really World War Two before the prospect of winning becomes imaginable. So, the concept of sending a daemon army in would be an effective, viable strategy until very recently. It would have led to the prospect of cities being besieged by that army and eventually falling in scenes of horrifying blood and slaughter. That is the seed of folk-memories in our culture that gave rise to stories of besieged communities. Of course, things didn't work out that way. The political model of Hell is a mix of renaissance Italy and 30 years war Germany in which it is cut up into relatively small Feudal states that maintain their own armies and are constantly jockeying for position. Satan kept things that way because while all the lords were conspiring against each other, they weren't conspiring against him. "Warfare" between the lords was tightly controlled and mostly for show. Armies would parade and have pushing-shoving matches until one side felt itself at a disadvantage and then there would be a discussion and a minor border adjustment. All very stylized and actually quite "civilized". The daemons didn't really fight to win in the sense we know it, they fought to make a point and gain an advantage. Then they ran into humans who invented total war and proceded to use it on the daemons. Ooops. However, that culture of constant conflict is why there is a standing daemonic army; its the sum of the forces maintained by the Grand Dukes to defend their own interests in Hell. Sucking up to Satan is certainly one part of daemon Grand Dukes et al maintaining and/or advancing their positions but retaining significant military forces is another. Of course, too large a force and it becomes a threat to Satan which is why Satan maintained a large standing army of his own. All very medieval.

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Why are the Legions of hell stuck in the bronze age, and why did jesus think it more important to bring pot to heaven than I don't know researching the civilisation they will be destroying soon?


A bronze age legion of hell was used because that's what the mythology stipulates.

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Why was Jesus bringing pot to Heaven?"


Jesus wasn't bringing them in, Michael was and he was doing so for a very specific purpose. Michael is corrupting the whole leadership of Heaven (the historical analogy being the British-Chinese Opium Wars in the 19th Century) so that there will be no effective opposition when he deposes Yahweh and takes over. He's using a subversion and corruption strategy to take over Heaven.

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Why are the daemons holding giant idiot balls for deciding to wage all out war using the noble tactic of running at the enemy with the magic devices that are killing us before we reach them over and over and over.


The daemons do learn and they learn fast but the gap is too great to be bridged. In the initial campaign they used what amounted to medieval tactics (actually based on the battles of Agincourt and Crecy). By the end they had evolved the equivalent of 1918 tactics as used in the last German offensive of that year (the battle is actually modelled on Kursk though). Even so, had they been up against the opposition they expected they would have stomped right through them, can you imagine a single legion of daemons would have done to both armies combined at Waterloo.

They had a situation on their hands that required immediate attention plus the fact they had information that they thought was perfectly adequate. To the daemons, information two hundred years old is perfectly up-to-date and adequate. Hell is a largely stagnant society in which progress in the modern human sense is completely absent. That's an inevitable consequence of having effectively immortal beings and a social set-up that is based around nobody asking questions or disputing received information. Everybody in it assumes that society on Earth was the same - and can point to many thousands of years experience to prove just that. They are right; human society was largely stagnant for more than 2,000 years. The great change in human killing power came in the last 50 - 60 years. The daemons have no reason to assume that anything is different; all their experience to date suggests that information 200 years old is perfectly adequate. They walked over the opposition humans could put up in pre-history and, as far as they could see, nothing had changed at all. Historical model, the British in the Zulu Wars period. They'd walked all over the African tribes in earlier conflicts, they assumed that nothing had changed. In fact, one slight thing had changed and the result was Isandlwana. The British were lucky, the difference in question was tiny and it didn't matter very much in the long term. Now, imagine what would have happened if Cetawayo had a modern armored division.

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Why didn't the daemons do a detailed reconnaissance before fighting the humans

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They did, it's just that human progress up to the start of the 19th century was very slow. There was almost no difference between an army of 330BC and 1650 AD. A casual observer would look at the armies of Alexander the Great and Gustavus Adolphus and mumble "still using phalanxes I see" and wander off. For 3,000 years humanity was inching along at a development rate that was about comparable with the daemons themselves. A quick look every two hundred years of so was perfectly adequate for information purposes all that time. So why should the daemons make the decision to change anything? The whole ethos of daemonic society is "don't rock the boat" and "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". They had a system that worked (and very powerful incentives not to stay away from Hell too long) so why should they suddenly change their system for no apparent reason. They were unlucky that suddenly humanity's ability to kill leaped forward within a few decades. had the daemons hit in 1945 or 1955 they would still have been in with a chance; they'd have got a hideous bloodying in their first battle but the time period of their defeat would have been slow enough to allow them to react, learn and change. It was the sheer speed of their defeat more than anything else that doomed them; they were behind the curve and outside the OODA loop.

It should also be pointed out that a lot of real life nations and armies have gone to war with very bad or no intel.

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Why is the only thing going for the baldrics is the fact that they are mostly immune to one of our weakest caliber of bullet.


That is simply not true. We gave the daemons all of the powers they were supposed to have; extreme strength, the ability to fly, the ability to possess people's minds, the ability to throw lightning bolts, extreme resistance to damage and gave them all reasonable explanations, if necessary twisting science into knots to do it. But, they got their powers. I think the problem here is that some people have been educated into believing that "having powers" = "automatic victory" and they expect that anybody with "powers" is de facto invincible. What TSW:A does is suggest that "having powers" is not an automatic route to victory. If the technology difference is too great, having "powers" doesn't help. It doesn't matter if a being can throw lightning bolts (or have a death-ray glare, whatever) if they are being slaughtered by an enemy they can't even see and who is using massed indirect artillery fire. The daemons have their powers, it's just that they don't matter very much Daemons and angels both have powers that thousands of years ago made them godlike but are much less effective against the firepower and resources modern industrial societies can produce. This is, I think, one of the main points of the stories.

The daemons put up the best fight they could given the assets that had available; in fact they did pretty well. They survived. "Powers" mean nothing when they are simply irrelevent to the situation as happened here; the same "powers" that made daemons invincible in the far past were meaningless faced with the devastating power of modern military equipment operated by humans. Exact comparison - an armor-clad knight on a modern battlefield. What good does it do him that his armor is impervious to arrow or sword and his destrier can outrun a peasant on foot when he is charging a company of M-1 or T-90 tanks with heavy artillery support? Answer: nothing at all. He'll die in seconds and all his medieval "powers" don't count for beans

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Why didn't god just send one of his many asteroids our seeing as how he/she/it created them.


Well, for starters, he didn't create them, they're not his and flipping one out of orbit is harder than it sounds. In any case, reread mythology. Humanity is consigned to Hell, it's up to Satan to collect us. He tried, he died.

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Why do I have to read the book before criticizing it?


Because failing to do so discredits any opinions you might have. If you have never read the book, why should anybody take anything you say seriously? You are just managing to make a complete fool of yourself

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Why do demons need faith they are the things that people place their faith in.
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Baldricks don't need faith in the sense that it sustains them, but rather the book describes to how they "use" faith in place of science leading to them making several bad decisions during the Salvation War which lead up to why they get curb stomped so badly, and even their Super Weapon Surprise ends up having little more effect on our war effort than Hitler's Wonder Weapons did on the British.


That purpose is to torture humans and eventually to exterminate the entire human race. After thousands of years of torturing people you'd think they'd be experts on killing us. Also they have the ability and means to spy on us I'm not to privy on their numbers but it must be enough to be able to torture all the people who have sinned and died in the past and for all the people that still sin, die and go to hell. If they ever ran out of man power then they must have ways to create more demons unless their whole species is sterile which I would find extremely hard to believe cuz then why have the succubus. So it is a very big stretch to say that they haven't always been spying on us. One last thing from what I've put together the portals emit Electro Magnetic Frequencies or Pulses the kind that are usually found in places said to be haunted or the bermuda triangle ideal places for demons to portal themselves in to spy on us because they have no reason not to. As for the Warfare arguement while it didn't change much in the until the last few centuries there is still the increase in population and the age at what people die, as a demon if you've been torturing people mostly between the ages of 1 to 40 and suddenly 60 and 80 year olds started to show up mmore frequently you start wondering what's going on to prolong the lives of humans. Lastly they're were TWO world wars fought in the last 100 years Which would be a gigantic spike in the dead they received and I don't know if they show up in hell with their wounds (a corpse showing up with the after effects of mustard gas/zykon B would be pretty noticeable) or not but a gigantic surge of dead would be reason enough to check on us even though they already should be.

Secondly as for why Baldricks moved against Earth without bothering to do a complete backround check first, it was because God had just decided that our number was up and it was time for the rapture. While Satan doesn't have to follow God's orders, if he refused at that point then Heaven would declare war on him again. Thus Satan could either have a war with Earth or with Heaven, and so he picked the option that seemed the best at the time (going to war with Earth) and jumped in with both feet so that he could finish things up quickly in case the powers above changed their minds halfway through. Also you fail to see an inherent contradiction within your own words, if Baldricks have been bread to do nothing but torture people, what about that makes you think they'd make good soldiers? In this story human beings arrive naked and confused in hell, surrounded by gigantic monsters that could quite easily break them in half with their bear hands. But by the same token, tigers could quite easily kill most naked unarmed people if they wanted to. Thanks to humanities powerful weapons we've managed to hunt tigers to the edge of extinction. Ask yourself, don't you think that thousands upon thousands of years of Baldricks torturing naked unarmed humans would really be good preparation for taking on armies of armed soldiers with tank, air, and artillery support? Rather than than training them for the final battle the situation in hell understandably made them in regards to us since they never saw what we could fully do. As for the number of Baldricks, they're actually lower than you would expect (there are about 45 million Bladricks who are involved in the entire torturing operation/army compared to 90 billion dead humans) since Hell is actually a rather hands off when it comes to torture much of the time. When you have a couple hundred thousand people trapped in a burning lake for all eternity you only need a few guys to patrol the shores and toss anyone who manages to climb out back in. Likewise, nail somebody to a cross, toss them into neck deep sewage, and forget about them. Or seal them in a burning coffin, or toss them into the middle of an apparently endless desert, in the story Hell's tortures are mainly delivered by your situation rather than your captors. As to your statements about how nobody noticed the mass influx of people arriving in Hell, the Baldricks did. The problem was that they live in a society that is designed to be incredibly prone to back stabbing and power hording. As the Baldricks believe it, the more humans you're torturing the more life energy you're collecting from them, the more powerful you are. So if you're used to getting a shipment of 10 humans every day and all of a sudden you get a 1,000 or even 10,000 instead, what is John Q Baldrick more likely to do? Run a letter up the chain of command to tell people that there's something fishy going on, or do everything they can in order to keep those extra humans hidden? It's a lot like when you find the bank has made an error in your favor, are you really going to take the effort to raise a fuss? Humans also appear in Hell with a completely new body at the peak of their psychical strength, so scratch the issue of Baldricks noticing that humans were getting older on average, and the one of noticing that they'd died in new and unusual ways. Those are both things you would have known quite easily IF YOU'D BOTHERED TO READ THE BOOK! Finally, you fail to grasp how the Baldricks view humanity/earth. You think that they saw us as another nation, sort of like how the US views Africa, compared to us they've got a horrible standard of living and have no real military power to speak of, but if they started to suddenly get their act together, we'd be aware of it. That's not how it works. As far as Baldricks are concerned in this story, humanity are nothing but cattle until they try to invade again. So if it was during the height of the Cold War, do you think America and Russia were sending their spies into cattle pens to see if the cows were developing horrific weapons the likes of which we had never seen before? Of course not they were sending them off to investigate the other guy, the guy who you knew was out to get you, and you KNEW had the weapons to do it. Now take that situation and multiply it by a hundred, its not just two nations that are at each others throats, everyone is out to get everyone, and if anyone takes their eyes of the game then they're going to be paying for it. Because of the cut throat environment that Satan encouraged in Hell (to prevent people from possibly uniting against him) nobody saw it as a worth while investment to seriously investigate humanity. Thus there is in fact a very big reason why Baldricks did not keep up with current events on Earth. In conclusion, you give Hell more credit than they deserve by assuming that they gave us the credit we deserved.
◦I don't hsve to read the book to see what's wrong with it, Thus proving you don't know what you're talking about, and thus discrediting your entire opinion at the get-go.
◦Why do demons need faith they are the things that people place their faith in. Read the story. The demons as presented in this story are biological entities with their own religion and belief systems. Thus, they have a faith.
◦Someone said that lots of nations and countries go to war with little or no intel, while "true" they still had a basic idea of the enemy's capabilities, But this is not some small country or nation this an entire species created and existing for one purpose. That purpose is to torture humans and eventually to exterminate the entire human race. Except if you read the story, you'd know the demons as presented in this story do not exist solely to torture and torment mankind. In fact,t he majority of them, like humans, are just....people. Just folks trying to survive day-to-day. Of course, you'd know that, if you bothered reading the story.
◦After thousands of years of torturing people you'd think they'd be experts on killing us. If you'd paid attention or read the story, you'd know they are experts on killing humans, but they don't have the tech base to match humans. They're good at killing humans, but the humans are better at killing humans, and there's enough similarity between humans and demons that those methods easily translate.
◦Also they have the ability and means to spy on us I'm not to privy on their numbers but it must be enough to be able to torture all the people who have sinned and died in the past and for all the people that still sin, die and go to hell. Again, read the story. They don't actually have the manpower to torture everyone, so most of their methods are passive, i.e. toss people into the burning river, send troops to patrol the banks and toss in anyone who crawls out.
◦So it is a very big stretch to say that they haven't always been spying on us. They have been spying on humans. It's just that they don't need to do it constantly from their perspective. See Stuart's counterpoints presented above which deal with this.
◦One last thing from what I've put together the portals emit Electro Magnetic Frequencies or Pulses the kind that are usually found in places said to be haunted or the bermuda triangle ideal places for demons to portal themselves in to spy on us because they have no reason not to. Demons require Nephelim to portal anywhere. You'd know this is, y'know, you'd read the story.
◦As for the Warfare arguement while it didn't change much in the until the last few centuries there is still the increase in population and the age at what people die, as a demon if you've been torturing people mostly between the ages of 1 to 40 and suddenly 60 and 80 year olds started to show up mmore frequently you start wondering what's going on to prolong the lives of humans. Yes. they do. And they notice. And most of the Hellish duckes' response is "whee, more humans to torture!" and they start underreporting the numbers of humans they have up top for their torture tithes. Which, you know, you would know if you had bothered actually reading the story.
◦Lastly they're were TWO world wars fought in the last 100 years Which would be a gigantic spike in the dead they received and I don't know if they show up in hell with their wounds (a corpse showing up with the after effects of mustard gas/zykon B would be pretty noticeable) or not but a gigantic surge of dead would be reason enough to check on us even though they already should be. Again, the only reaction was "yay more humans!" In other words, all your questions would be answered if you'd bothered reading the story.

•So yeah a giant idiot ball called arrogance. With a society like that you'd think they would have had more than a few civil wars until ultimately they would figure out that fighting would solve nothing in their world except reduce their numbers. If they just had to make sure the humans they tortured stayed in their "pens" then they must have a lot of free time why not spend that time having a good ole time watching humans, messing around with us and looking at all this stuff we've made and done.(internet, t.v, movies, sports, and watching us fight wars, gamble and pretty much act like a sailor on shore leave) As for your cattle arguement we too are always watching cattle, watching them with guns, well the majority anyway but either way I think we would notice almost immediately that they gained inteligence enough to create weapons. What other purpose do demons have other than human eradication and torture after they lost the war between angels and demons it's not like they want to fight heaven again. I didn't say they were a nation I said they were a species someone else used nations as an example. Besides I'm learning a lot about the book without even reading it and I prefer it that way. Of course there is that arguement against me I don't know if it holds up here or not but here goes, according to the bible we were made in gods image and given favor over the angels as the superior creation which could prove why were you know kicking their ass all over the place but again I don't know if that arguement holds up in the authors universe. Why didn't you mention my little haunted house bermuda triangle thing I thought that was a good point. Another question in this world did the dinosaurs exist? cause that's 6.5 million plus years the demons would have been alive or is this something else where the demons started out with adam and eve?
◦So yeah a giant idiot ball called arrogance. With a society like that you'd think they would have had more than a few civil wars until ultimately they would figure out that fighting would solve nothing in their world except reduce their numbers. Which is why the multitudes of Italian city states, which the demonic society is based on, so quickly unified during the Ren...Oh, wait, nevermind on that.
what does that mean?
◦If they just had to make sure the humans they tortured stayed in their "pens" then they must have a lot of free time why not spend that time having a good ole time watching humans, messing around with us and looking at all this stuff we've made and done.(internet, t.v, movies, sports, and watching us fight wars, gamble and pretty much act like a sailor on shore leave) Because most of them are too busy working to survive, and the higher-ups are too busy engaging in Machiavellian power-plays befitting the tech base and structure of their society.
survive what killing each other? where's the progress in that? Humans benifitted from advanced technology so why not demons they are similar aren't they?
◦As for your cattle arguement we too are always watching cattle, watching them with guns, well the majority anyway but either way I think we would notice almost immediately that they gained inteligence enough to create weapons. Except we watch cattle by keeping them in pens and guarding them because they run the possibility of escaping. In this setting, the cattle harvest themselves. They don't need to bother watching or guarding humans on Earth because most demonic-human interaction comes from humans popping in helpless and naked and ready to be "harvested". As far as most of the demons are concerned, that's the extent of the effort they have to engage in.
◦What other purpose do demons have other than human eradication and torture after they lost the war between angels and demons it's not like they want to fight heaven again. If you'd actually read the story you would know what the demons spend most of their time doing.
fighting amongst themselves?
◦I didn't say they were a nation I said they were a species someone else used nations as an example. And? The baldricks are a nation, one vast collection of warring dukes under the iron dominion of Satan.
someone was implying I said nation i said species.
◦Besides I'm learning a lot about the book without even reading it and I prefer it that way. Yes, and your ignorant arguments are proving that you apparently don't believe in actually researching something before complaining about it.
this is my research to see if it's worth the time to read.
◦Of course there is that arguement against me I don't know if it holds up here or not but here goes, according to the bible Hold up right there. the Bible in this setting is nothing but Yahweh-written propaganda and thus untrustworthy.
Then why would he let on that he has a weakness to iron in his own propaganda you know that quote every body qouted.

•All in all I get it now, my questions are answered 'cept for that dinosaur one, and I am happy.
•Hey can you tell me about demon life though I was going to read it but I don't know where to start and I don't have the time to read it all.
◦Since you asked allow me to drop a great big info dump down since I've got nothing better to do. First lets talk about the Bladricks themselves. In the Salvation War Universe, heaven started out as one bubble universe seperate from Earth, which was unified under God/Yahweh's control. Then however the angels discovered another world which was "like" Heaven to the extent that they could live in it. There was already a native population of this new world which were known as Orcs, but the angels being more powerful managed to basically roll right over them turning them into slaves and conquering this new world. Then Satan, who just might be /have been Yahweh's brother in this universe (there have been some hints but its neither been confirmed or denied) decided that he was tried of playing second fiddle to the big man. However unlike how most accounts portray it in the Salvation War, the battle was not truly about Satan trying to take control from Yahweh any more than the civil war was about the South trying to take control of the North. Also Satan managed to "win" the war to the extent that for whatever reason Yahweh decided to let him take his servants and start up their own little kingdom as Hell. After the War "something" which has not yet been made clear happened to those who lived in Hell which caused them to transom into vastly different beings and become what are known to humanity as Baldricks for reason that are unclear, though at there is a possibility that in addition to Orcs Hell is also occupied by beings known as "devils" who the Bladricks seem to view as some kind bogey men. Whatever it was that did it, the Bladricks evolved/were transformed into six major different types. There first are harpies who can fly at around 200 MPH at most and manage to stay airborne through hydrogen sacks in their bodies. The upside of this is that they can breath fire, the downside is that if they are seriously wounded their own blood coming into contact with oxygen can most likely finish them off. The second are Succubi they have the unique power of Mind Entanglement which allows them to project images into peoples heads through a complicated bit of quantum mechanics. This allows them to be either invisible or appear like perfectly ordinary human beings. That said they have to be consciously aware of the persons whose mind they are entangling for the trick to work, so if they are being watched by someone through a security camera their real shape will be revealed. Also because this trick works along similar process to electro-magnetic pulse, its possible to prevent it from working by wearing a tin-foil hat. That said they do have one last trick up their sleaves, they unconsciously generate pheromones which cause people to feel more inclined to feel nice towards them. This is harder to counteract but can be either mitigated by keeping mentally alert, or dealing with them in an place whose atmosphere is repeatedly swept clean, or of course the old stand by of wearing a gas mask. The Third are Leviathans they're more or less like gigantic whales that that are able to attack by sucking up water and shooting it out at an incredible velocity. We don't see much of them as while Hell does have a few actual water rivers, the "shooting water" trick works best if you're shooting it through air (ever try to use a super soaker underwater?) and so human submarines are fairly easily able to blow them out of the water. The fourth type is Gorgons which are the jack of all trades of Baldrick world being able to do a little bit of everything. They have multiple constantly moving tendrils for hair, which come equipped with little "heads" that can shoot darts laced with various types of chemicals which can do anything from paralyzing someone to leaving them tripping balls and worshiping the Gorgon who darted them like a Godess (so far we have yet to meet any male Succubi or Gorgons as my memory serves there may be a male version of the Succubi by they haven't shown up in the story yet) and so they can be quite dangerous. That said the "hair darts" only have about the same range as a human blow dart which is why the Baldricks don't use Gorgons for front line fighting. Finally there is a fifth type which is for the most part not given a special name which is basically the standard demon as you'd imagine them, big tall, muscular, claws that can rip a person in half, you get the idea. These Baldricks have something similar to the organs electric eels have, except on steroids. Your average Baldrick foot solider can generate enough electrical energy to fry a human being, but they typically need to be weilding a trident to help them aim the blast of energy. Also the range over which such shots are accurate is rather minimal compared to modern human weaponry, so Baldricks tended to only use such attacks much the same way humans would use rifled muskets before the Minié ball, you would have a few guys using them to soften the other side up a little, but it was nothing more to them but an opening act to the real battle which would be determined by other weapons. Finally there are the Naga which as you might guess are deamons who have snake like lower bodies. They seem to be espeically adept at generating very powerful lightning bolts, and opening portals between different worlds.
◦Now that I've got all that out of the way I'll talk about Baldrick life as best I can. Baldricks live and die by the "Large and In charge" principle. There are seven ranks of Baldrick, and each is a noticeable step up from the next lower one. At the bottom you have Minor Demons, who being the least powerful in Hell get the short end of the stick everywhere, they're constantly pushed around by the other Baldricks. They seem to have to live more or less as farmers (farming is possible in parts of Hell, not fun but possible) and while they don't have it quite as bad as the humans, they still get to experience "the violence inherent in the system" every day of their very long lives. The rank up from that is Lesser Deamons, they are your bread and butter Baldricks, the ones who are actually powerful enough for the other demons to use as fighters and tortures, they're still looked down on, but unlike minor demons they have plenty of hapless targets to take their anger out on. After that you get a five more categories which are a bit more difficult to parse to each individual level. As for what life in Hell is like before the Salvation War breaks out, Satan knows that he got to his current position via picking a fight with the last guy who was in charge and he has no desire to let anyone else follow his example. While he's evidently the most powerful Baldrick in Hell he's also aware that he'd probably go down if he was ganged up on by several of his minions so to prevent that from happening he goes to considerable length to keep his subjects busily fighting against one another to try and get into his good graces. He's just a touch (understatement) obvious about it, being less of a master manipulator and more of a huge jackass, and his cruelty gets passed down the line to every other Baldrick in Hell. That said because Baldricks seem to more or less live forever if they aren't killed, he has a considerable weight of inertia working in his favor, and probably part of what kept a revolution from ever taking place against him was that his would be killers knew that they'd end up getting killed in the next wave of revolutions as sure as volcanoes spew magma. In Hell if at any point you are killed/betrayed by one of your minions don't waste your time crying to person above you in the chain of command, you either need to deal with it yourself, or your be default proven yourself to be a fool and thus your newly promoted subordinate will do a better job. Because Satan has such a hands off approach to letting people for the most part keep whatever they can grab, and everyone wanting to have as much as possible what we would consider to be cute little "wars" are more or less always going on around the clock. Baldricks are very formal about their wars, Heralds are considered to have diplomatic immunity and never attacked when they're serving as a go between, though should you bring bad news to your own side, there are pretty decent chances you'll end up being killed/devoured for it. Sieges (which are also fairly common since there are pathetic castles all over hell) involve the two sides lining up to get a good look at how many soldiers each side has, and quite frequently negotiating a peace then and there. Because Baldricks fight with little more than their own bodies (fearsome as they are) and Tridents the loss of life during battles tend to be fairly low, and when one side sees it is loosing they'll almost always pull back before it can turn into a route and the winning side will let them because battles are fought for territory rather than with the expressed aim of trying to destroy the other army. As for why there is no new weapons of war being created among such a war like race, much of it has to do with Hell's environment, its more or less completely saturated with the dust from the countless volcanoes in Hell. While the Baldricks are tough enough that it doesn't bother them, it also makes fine quality craftsmanship almost entirely impossible. Secondly it has to do with the keeping power where it is. Power in Hell has just as much to do with how strong YOU are as how large an army you command. Thus the creation of weapons which would make the individual Baldrick a more effective solider, like firearms simply CAN'T BE ALLOWED to exist because they would serve as a threat to Satan's domain. That's another one of the big key differences between us, we're willing to accept that "Samuel colt made us equal" and a homeless man can own a weapon powerful enough to kill the president, in Hell they aren't. Thus, anyone who came up with such a creation would look forward only to getting their face stomped in by every single one of Satan's major minions before the big red "S" himself flosses with their entrails. No Grand Duke of Hell has died in battle, even in the war between Heaven and Hell and they don't intend to start doing it any time soon. That seems to be a pretty good primer for the moment, any other questions about Baldrick life I can answer?
•What do they eat? would they like human food? how long exactly have they been alive? If they're so used to retreating when they start losing a few people why continue with the war when they start losing lots of people? My bermuda triangle arguement was that the presence of the emf and emp would be evidence of them using portals to spy on us.(this isn't a question for you it's for some other guy)
◦As for what Baldrick's eat, they seem to be by and large carnivores, so they can eat "human food" to that extent. They can also eat "human food" to the extent of eating either each other (as I already mentioned) or us (they consider the malformed fetuses of aborted or miscarried babies old enough to have developed the spiritual energy to be "reborn" in Hell (IE four months along)) a delightful snack/delicacy. They raise food beasts which as well. Baldricks despite being warm blooded seem to need to eat fairly infrequently, the author hasn't gone into exactly how many pounds of meat/how many calories they need per day, but its considerably less than you'd expect.
◦As for why they didn't run away when doing battle with humans when we started inflicting mass casualties you need to consider the political situation. In Hell the guy you're fighting with today is the guy you might be allied with against someone else the next day. If you wear down your own army trying to utterly and completely destroy his then congratulations, you've just won the booby prize of a lot of land to defend and a lot fewer soldiers to do it with, I trust you can guess what happens next. Meanwhile on Earth, the Baldricks saw all of Humanity as one massive enemy, there could be no alliance with them, they needed to be completely and utterly destoryed. The Baldricks war efforts against humanity are in effect one gigantic series of Hope Spots, one right after another. No commander wants to admit that they got beaten by those "pathetic" humans since doing so would be grounds for the person up the chain to demote (by which I mean more likely devour) them and put someone new in charge. So they know they're dead if they'll be killed by their own side if they admit they lost and pull back, while they're only marginally certain they'll die if they keep fighting and try for victory. Thus they press their soldiers onward regardless of casualties, figuring that if they just keep trying hard enough eventually they'll be able to close with the humans who are slaying them and return the favor.
◦The above explains why they continue press onward in individual battles let me explain the war effort on the whole. Baldricks did quickly realize that there was something very wrong going on and humanity was curb stomping them. There were multiple reasons why they could just quit the war however. Problem one is that any attempt to establish peace, or even surrender to humanity would mean that they'd failed in their establish duty, and thus get Yahweh to declare war on them for being unable to live up his divine commands, and the last thing they wanted was to make an offering of peace, and have Yahweh find out about it before its a done deal, thus leaving them fighting a two front war against humanity and Heaven. Problem two is that for a treaty to be effective Satan has to agree with it, he does not enjoy the fact that his infernal legions are getting splattered all over the place by human tank shells and more or less follows the Hitler route, where he is constantly screaming for new and deadlier weapons which will properly put these humans back in their place. He simply can't comprehend that he and his side have already lost the war effectively, and by the time it becomes personal for him.... well you'll see what happens if you bother to read the story. Problem number three is that the Baldricks on the whole figure that death fighting humanity is probably better than whatever terms they'd get if they surrendered to us. You can't really fault them for that, as they have spent the last few millennia spit roasting our brothers and sisters while devouring our children, in their minds they probably assumed that humanity would turn things around and see to it that they were the ones who were now spending eternity drowning in rivers of flame. Do those three problems put together paint a reasonable picture of why the Baldricks didn't just give up when things started to turn against them in the war?
•great now this no longer bugs except for two small ways the bermuda triangle thing and now that I think about I can't stop imagining satan ordering his minions to bring him twinkies, big macs, and otherkinds of delicous food we have. everything has been resolved but I'm still wondering about the bermuda triangle(evidence of an always open portal) thing couldn't that have been used as an explanation for strange occurences like missing people, disemboweled cattle, planes, and ghost ships. It could also explain strange beasts like you know the jersey devil, sasquatch, chupacabra, sea monsters etc. That's all I but it'll be a while before I can forget the mental image of satan gorging on junk food.
•Hey new question did they use humans as beast of labor? You know like oxen and horses. Another question were their any daemon defections? demons that decided it was in their own best interest to side with the humans against their superiors who have mistreated them for almost all their natural life. Another question why is hell such prime real estate that the daemons keep fighting and backstabbing each other over it? lastly how long have the demons been alive exactly?
◦They don't "really" use humans as beasts of labor, mainly because by and large we're too weak and pathetic to be any good at the job as the average Baldrick is several times stronger than the average human being. However some Baldricks do take advantage of the humans slight statue and deft fingers to take care of certain tasks, as we see examples of a few "lucky" humans who basically end up serving some particular Baldrick lord or lady as a servant/maid, along with humans being used as miners probably because they'd have to make the tunnels larger if they were going to use Baldricks. As for Baldricks who defect, there are a fair number of them, though the general principle for the reasons I've listed above concerning why they don't stop fighting means that they typically involve getting captured first, learning about how much better things are on our side, and then signing up to help with our war effort. Finally hell isn't exactly "prime real estate" but its also all the Baldricks have. They seem to exist mainly on a fairly crude battering system (we know they prize jewels) so there isn't much in the way of money. Satan doesn't want any of his minions going out and discovering another new bubble universe because it would most likely lead to somebody pulling the exact same trick on him that he did on Yahweh when they found Hell and splitting off from his rule to start their own kingdom. As for how long the Baldricks have been alive, the number is more or less up int he air, but by the time the very first Homo Sapien came around they'd already broken off from Heaven, its a safe bet to say that they've been around for a really LONG, LONG, time. Or at least some of them have, all of Satan's top generals are the same guys he used when fighting his war with Heaven for example.
•You said they don't eat very much but considering how big they are and the amount of energy their powers use up how much would you say the daemons need to eat? Can they die from hunger? If they can would the humans in hell also die from hunger? I keep coming up with more questions for every new piece of information. While individually we are weak and pathetic in numbers couldn't we humans be able to do their work for them?
◦On the issue of how much Baldricks need to eat to get by, that is the one part of the story that I'm willing to admit is to a certain extent makes little logical sense. I can provide you with no good answer, since Bladricks seem to need to eat about as much as a cold blooded animal of their size does, rather than a warm blooded one. The only solution I can give is as follows, go to go join the form on which the story is posted (you can find a link on the main page) and send a private message to the author Stuart Slade, according to this sights post on Word of God he's pretty forth coming about such details though at the moment his muse seems to have wandered away from the Salvation War universe so he might not be as happy to field questions as he normally is. Its a safe bet that Baldricks can in fact die of hunger it would just take a really long time. However the humans in Hell can not die of hunger. The "natural state" of a humans second body in hell is to have an automatic and powerful healing factor which not only repairs wounds but also sustains them so they don't need to eat or drink. This is why a Spartan who was one of the 300 can spend a thousand plus years in a lake of lava and yet not die from the experience. As for why Baldricks don't use humans emass to do their dirty work, think about the following for a moment. First of all, humans are individually weak but have strength in numbers. This equations is a double sided sword, since it means that "A": "10 humans can lift that rock which we'd need two Baldricks to move..." BUT ALSO "B": "Ten humans could give one Baldrick a run for their money in a fight." If you use humans as a source of labor at first yes they'd probably be glad just not to be tortured any more, but sooner or later that nasty thing known as "ego" kicks in. At that point the humans have something you want, their skills as laborers, and the Baldricks who have already been torturing them for eternity don't really have any great sticks to frighten them back into sumbission as it is a "been there done that" kind of thing. The one Baldrick who see in the story using humans for manual labor is also the odd ball of the group who the others consider to be the court Jester. This in turn suggests that he doesn't have enough Baldricks to truly get everything he wants done, so he has to take his chances and make use of some of the humans under his control as part of the work force and hope that he can prevent a rebellion from taking place. Finally, there's a very big reason why Baldricks don't want to be using human labor once the Salvation War starts. Its the same reason why the Germans had problem using the labor of the people whose nations they'd captured in World War Two. To Quote a Crowning moment of awesome: "This troper's neighbour recalls an unexploded bomb in his village. When a bomb disposal team opened the casing, they found an inscription tracing the bomb to a Czech factory, and that the fuse system had been replaced with cement. Think about it for a moment. Czech workers, whose country had been conquered by the Nazis even before the war had begun, were risking their lives in order to save people they'd never know." In short, Subcontracting the work of conquering people, out to THE VERY SAME PEOPLE YOU'RE SUPPOSE TO BE CONQUERING (or at least people who have more reason to side with them than with you) is a surefire way to get lackluster results. Also since we've been going at this for a few days now, you should consider at least reading the first chapter of the book so you can at least figure out if you like the prose style of it or not.
•I read the first chapter but the amount of detail he goes into on the plane and radio is....off putting, and it seems to me these baldricks seem tailor made to lose in a special way he put a lot of thought into why they are why they are and it makes alot of sense but some parts don't add up. Humans make each other slaves all the time and after thousands of years of torture would it be easier to remember your name or that if you disobey its back into the firey water for another 10 years? Humans are animals and as such can be broken unless the dead humans can repair the damage done to their mind as well as their body? After 1600 years of torture and obediance to the daemons wouldn't they have the same frame of mind as the baldricks if they were made to fight the modern day human? The choice of help conquer people I don't know or back into the sand pit with no water or the buried under ground in a coffin for a good century? They're are so many ways the baldricks could have won but the excuse that they were to arrogant seems to be all the author needs? For the czech thing if they were caught they would have been shot and killed which is similar but still different enough to make a difference. Here is an example sabotage a missile geet found out and get days of torture and then death or just death, compared to mess up a generals cocktail and get thrown into a lake of fire where you will not die and just kind of stew in pain for a decade and if you stop screaming then they kick the pain up a notch.
◦It's not just Bladrick arrogance that kept them from winning the war, it's a number of things. First of all, to a certain degree yes a human being in hell has the mind repair the "damage" done to it by torture, for the most part at least. The upside of this is that if you stop getting tortured for some reason then you're more or less good to go and still sane, though you'll probably have nightmares for a while and possibly some other PTSD type symptoms. The downside of it is obviously that you don't become "used" to the torture that you're being subjected to. That way the Baldricks don't have to actually increase the amount of torture your surroundings inflict upon you in order to keep you screaming in agony. Also, bare in mind that Hell has effectively become a prison, and like any prison, the prisoners outnumber the guards. Also, you have to keep in mind Hell was never meant as a massive brainwashing operation. Yes given enough time the Baldricks could probably teach humans to serve them without rebelling, but that was never their goal, their goal was to put humans in as much pain as possible. Also the only reason that humans are at all useful in combat is because they have weapons, so even if Baldricks could force dead humans to fight for them, they'd be doing it with their bare hands. Finally consider the following situation, the Baldricks have a "punishment unit" of unarmed dead humans who are going to be used as shock troops to charge at the modern day humans to soften them up since a quick death is better then a prolonged one. Then all of a sudden an air plane flies overhead and a few crates worth of AK-47s are rained down. Okay that's a stretch which requires the humans involved to be knowledgeable about modern day fire arms, but let me offer you another idea. They run straight at the humans, and nothing happens. The modern day humans don't shoot the dead humans run right up to them, and hug them for all they're worth, before begging to do anything they can to help kill those bastards who enslaved them. If the Baldricks charged with the dead Humans then you'd probably see snipers pick off of the Baldricks, or have the dead humans turn on them in the middle of battle. The "Curbstomp war" lasted for about a year. The Baldricks simply didn't have time to change the purpose of Hell from torturing to brainwashing humans to use them effectively. What other ways did you see that the Baldricks could have won exactly, and what is the what was the "special way" in which they had been tailor made to loose?
•It is made to seem as though they have some things going for them durability strentgh and the like but they are all nullified numbers? 45 million baldricks < couple billion humans.
◦Numbers are as specified in Christian mythology. Don't blame me for the fact that the numbers in question seemed huge two thousand years ago but are small in comparison with the numbers of humans around now. It isn't just weaponry that's changed.
◦I thought that was just yahwheh written propaganda
Doesn't matter. The rules of the game are that the prophecies etc datingf rom that era come true. So. we are stuck with what they say.
•Powers? mind control < tin foil hats,
◦Screening is the first thing any competent research team will try. It works. The scary thing about tinfoil hats is that when one thinks about it, their use is quite rational. That worries me a little.
•Pheromones < will power,gas mask,
◦READ THE STORY Pheremones are not countered at any time in the course of the stories to date. They remain very dangerous. They are known and can be guarded against but as the judge showed, even somebody alert can be influenced by them
◦but they do eventually become countered
READ THE STORY No, they do NOT. Humans come up with work-arounds and recognize the threat but the pheremones themselves remain uncountered. As a result, humans are beginning to realize that the succubae are very dangerous, not the semi-lecherous joke they seemed to be at first.
•size=slower, bigger target,
◦READ THE STORY Daemons are specified as being much faster than humans. It's their one chance of survival against modern weapons.
◦Not for the leviathans or the flying baldricks who go 180 mph compared to the planes of today which go faster than sound so again nullified
Don't blame me, blame the mythology. Or do you think that all human aircraft should be restricted to 180mph just to make a fair fight of it? The whole point of the story is that humans are farm far more advanced in 2009 than they were 2000 years ago.
•lighting < missles,
◦And your point is? Just how effective against a tank do you think a lightning bolt is?
◦not very, destroy one tank and get splattered by a another
Exactly, so what are you complaining about? Daemons are specified as having the ability to throw lightning bolts, they get the ability to throw lightning bolts despite the physical impossibility of that. It's not our fault that as a weapon, that's next to useless.
•Durability < most everythin bigger than a 5.56 round.
◦READ THE STORY It takes multiple hits from .50 caliber and 20mm weapons to kill even a low-order daemon. The high-order ones need hits from heavy guided anti-tank missiles.
•Portals? Humans figured out how to make them in less than a year using a kitten no less, sounds like a cherry tap.
◦READ THE STORY kitten is a person, not a cat. And duplicating portals took a whole research effort by the United States and then was extremely dangerous and difficult for those involved.
•Allies? humanity seems to have united fairly quickly while daemons still bicker amongst themselves.
◦READ THE STORY Yahweh condemned all of humanity to Hell. That's a powerful motivating factor
◦finally getting a chance to leave your hell hole of a home sure demon truce........for now.
What are you talking about?
•Humans in hell are able to recover easier and better from more harmful things than the daemons i.e psychological damage.
◦READ THE STORY Utterly false
•Burning for a thousand years they get over it, a demon watches the after effects of an a bomb being droppes he goes all BSOD.
◦READ THE STORY That's a nuclear device we're talking about dummy. You know, the things that destroy entire countries? The things that are so unimaginably destructive that they give humans the fits and horrors? Destructive beyond anything even the most paranoid and pessimistic daemon could dream of? The thing that told Abigor that humans have the power to exterminate daemons without breaking into a sweat about it?
◦They've done worse things
READ THE STORY The daemons have NOT done anything that can remotely match the human ability for mass killing (until Belial and his gang come up with the volcano trick. Daemonic violence is retail, not wholesale. Being on the receiving end of an artillery barrage was something beyond their comprehension, yet Abigor discovered that humans have killing abilities that make artillery barrages pale into insignificance. Do you even remotely understand what nuclear weapons are and what they can do?
•It's not really clicking as to why they've been backstabbing and scheming in hell for the past millions of years all for a scrap of land filled with volcanoes and barely fertile land. While humans live in a much better world that the demons must be drooling over what with the abundance of food, clean air, and occupied by creatures they see no better than a common cow.
◦READ THE STORY The answer to that is clearly laid down there. Yahweh and Satan are competing for who controls Earth. If the daemons moved in, they would be restarting the Celestial War and they would probably lose.
•As for the ways they could have won well for one thing sabotage. Destroy our precious fossil fuel if just for the pleasure of watching it burn,
◦They don't know how dependent humans are on it. Try and understand this. Tha daemons had a time-proven plan for dealing with humans. Send a mass army and kill them all. Done it in the past, it worked. So they use the same plan again. Only things have changed.
•manipulate human nations to fight each other and enjoy it like a cock fight while taking bets
◦Yahweh managed to rule that out when he handed us all over to Satan.
◦and when he decided to announce his attack
Exactly; it's not an option that's open. The way the end of times is described in Revalation makes it impossible.
•steal a nuclear weapon seeing as how there are lots of WMD's unaccounted for in this world,
◦male bovine excrement Try and learn what you are talking about.
◦russia has the bomb, they have many bombs! they don't know where they all are....
Say again. male bovine excrement Yes, Russia has nuclear weapons (nuclear weapons are not bombs, they are devices). All are under proper control, just like ours. Don't believe crap you read in scare-mongering stories.
•Start massive forest fires everywhere or do the volcano portal trick on the pokar ice caps course that might not work as well as the others or would it?
◦READ THE STORY The strategic rationale (a very sound one if misconceived)is outlined by Belial there.
◦A good strategy could be to make earth a little more like home with ash in the air and what not.
Once again READ THE STORY You're talking nonsense
•that's all I can think of right now.
◦READ THE STORY You might note that those operational concepts are exactly what Michael-Lan is doing in the second book,
•No reason they shouldn't have known all this stuff, even the nazis who saw every non-white as filth of the earth sent spies all over the earth before they began the blitzkrieg.
◦READ THE STORY Major reaasons why. All concerned with time and different perceptions of it. If you had read the story you would know that Abigor did send out a preliminary recon but it was whacked before it reported back.
◦The recon force didn't come back hmmmm sounds like earth is ripe for the attacking!
READ THE STORY The daemons are operating on a timeline; Abigor suggested doing a probe or two to find out what was happening using succubae (expecting any changes would be political not technological) The succubae didn't come back (one was killed, one defected0. That was a minor detail that would not affect planning as a whole especially since Abigor was the only daemon who believed such a probe was necessary.
•Either way it's still a really cool story but some small things that keep raising questions in my mind. One of the few works to do so, although I am wondering if there's a story out there about demons enjoying the stuff humans have created. Anyway the humans come off as boring invinceable heroes,
◦That's utter male bovine excrement. READ THE STORY Humans lose two major cities with virtually everybody in them. Forced to fight under circumstances where they can't use artillery, (Hit) they get chewed up. The Russian defenses at the Phlegethon are breached despite the fact that they used everything short of a nuke and were only saved by a mass tank counterattack. In the second book, humns are taking a hammering and are unable to do much about it other than fend off the blows, Quoting boring invincible hero is utter crap spewed out by morons who are too ignorant to understand a written word.
◦okay that was an exaggeration but not as bad as yours calling me unable to understand a written word I can read and I know what your talking about it's just now I know better.
On the contrary, given your performance to date, I think my description was cold hard reality. Do you realize just how dumb your posts here make you look?
•which is my most hated trope the only time I liked it was in equilibrium. Oh yeah think about this, the hell humans charge forward and the earth humans don't fire not knowing if this is some kind of demon mind/pheromone trick earth humans open fire the hell humans shrug off the small arms and clash with the earth humans then things escalate. As a earth human I would think zombies or demons, as a hell human I would think the masters were right they don't want to save us they want to destroy us first chance they get. Or second scenario earth doesn't fire but the hell humans keep on with the charge and start killing the earth humans now it's a fight or flight for the earthians and as they retreat the baldricks flank them with a suprise attack and just let lose on them and have fun doing it. Well that's what I would do as a demon make humans fight each other for the sheer lols that humans are fighting themselves.
◦READ THE STORY You'll see why that doesn't happen.

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•Okay let me take these on one at a time... First of all the number of deamons was not just pulled out of a hat a random, take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_demonology and you'll see, 45 million Baldricks. Its not the author's fault that 45 million while a huge number back during the time of Christ, seems like a pittance compared to today. Besides, this makes perfect sense all things considered isn't it a generally accepted trope (not sure the name of it) that length of lifespan and how frequently you reproduce tend to have an inverse relation? It's why humans tend to out number elves so handily in just about any fantasy setting, the same thing happened here.
•Secondly, can you come up with a reasonable way to describe how mind control actual works? The Author came up with one that at least didn't set of my "male bovine excrement alert" but since it requires a certain type of connection between minds (and really what type of mind control wouldn't end up having some kind of scientifically measurable trail) it's just a matter of figuring out how to block them off. The Tin Foil hats is both funny and effective, as talked about over on the discussion page.
•As for size, well yeah being big makes you a bigger target, you also get a longer reach, sadly while the second was much more important than the first in melee combat when doing battle at range the opposite holds true.
•As for how demonic toughness gets counteracted, talk to the author, he knows his stuff militarily so unless you want to give the Baldricks Plot Armor there really is no way for them to effectively withstand the sheer rain of steel humanity can unleash.
•How is using kitten a "cherry tap" exactly? If you meant "ass pull" in that humans quickly managed to find someone who could make portals then say that and I'll argue with you about it, but I fail to see how using kitten was beating the Baldricks without even bothering to try properly as the "cherry tapping" trope implies. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... rryTapping
Cherry tapping that's like using something laughably weak against something else so kitten versus nephellim, small furry critter against a serpentine demon with the ability to withstand lots of damage.
•This is sad just plains sad. If you'd bothered to even read the main page to Salvation war you'd know what "kitten" meant in regards to this story, though you also clearly don't know how nephillim work. First of all a nephillim is a human with a certain amount of demonic ancestry in their past due to their mother having been knocked up by an incubus who go sperm from a sucubus, and along the way the DNA in the sperm gets played around with slightly. They look just like ordinary humans. Second of all if you look at the way people use the phrase its never "a kitten" its always "kitten" there's a reason for that. kitten (who insists her name be spelled without any sort of capitalization) is, and I quote directly from the Salvation War page on TV tropes (I can understand don't read the story but come on at least read the full page before you start asking questions!) A "masochistic transsexual Nephilim" She's a human being with demonic ancestry who when added by machinery is able to open portals to hell and talk with the people in hell. So do you see now how "cherry taping" doesn't apply in the slightest?
•sorry you can see my mistake The description of the chapter said kitten gets ready to open portal Haven't got that far yet on chap. 20 something also my kitty was in the area so my mind was on kittens.

•Humanity unites quickly because God sends of a message letting us know that we're all damned and that the demons are coming to take us to hell. That factored in with the way that most of really religious people offed themselves and you have two powerful reasons why humanity would be able to at least for the moment put aside their differences and focus on a common threat.
•Also you are dead wrong on humans in hell being better than Baldricks. They recover at about the same rate as Baldricks, but lack the toughness, and brute power. One undead human can kill another by blindly bashing their head to mush with a rock, while it takes several undead humans working together to beat a surprised Baldrick by jamming metal spikes into its eyes.
•Yeah misread on my part
◦Then what was the point you were trying to get across?
◦I forgot but it had to do with how humans with whips can keep other humans in line.
•As for psychological damages, if you're talking about the Baldrick that I think you're talking about (Abigor) guess what humanity suffered the exact same BOSD that he did. That "bomb" he saw going off was an atom bomb. You know how the Japanese went from planning to arm their women, children, and old men with bamboo spears to surrendering unconditionally when they saw what A-Bombs could do? It's understandable for a guy to freak out at that point. He isn't loosing it because of the damage its done to him, he's doing it because of the implications that come with having that kind of power and knowing his one times foes have it.
•On the issue of why Baldricks fought each other for pieces of Hell rather than just take over Earth which was a nicer place to live, its because if they jumped the gun and invaded before Yahweh told them they could then they'd end up triggering off another celestial war. Why pick a battle with your most hated enemy when you could just sit back and wait for the ripe juicy plumb to be given to you with his best wishes?
•I wasn't saying take over earth I was saying they could have at least visited alot over the millenia and let off some steam scare some humans grab a cow to eat and bring some nice shiny gold back to satan to get in his good favors.
◦Yes Baldricks do in fact do that. The Jersy Devil, probably a Baldrick all things considered. The Chupacabra, once again probably a Baldrick. Baldricks have taken part in little raids in the past, but the fact of the mater is that they have to be stealthy about it. If they mess around with Earth too much, then they're going to end up restarting the war with Heaven. Besides, why would they need to go to Earth to blow off steam when they've got human slaves at home to torture and "play" with. As for stealing gold, you do realize how hard that would be, I where do you suggest they would steal it from Fort Knox? Would they take the time and energy to dig it out of our ground? They can do that back in Hell, they can have servants do that for them back in Hell!
◦Gold, silver, shiny things, murder some merchant from the b.c ages look through his stuff and bring back anything to kiss up to satan, cuz wasn't gold used alot back then as a form of currency? The jersey devil and chupacabra recent sigthings have been made in the past few decades that could be them spying on us but I guess not in this world
◦Yeah, but Gold and Silver are a lot harder to find these days, and Satan already has just about all of it. In fact, come to think of it, Baldricks are never shown using gold or silver in the story as currency, so I think you're really going to need precious jewels, which are pretty hard to fine. Also bare in mind that what do those chupacabra and Jersy devil sightings have in common? They always happen FAR AWAY from civilized humanity. That could very much be the Baldricks spying on us, the problem for them woudl be that all their seeing is humanity still living in tents, thus fuffilling their preconcieved notion that humans haven't changed much.
•Now for sabotage, because Baldricks don't eat much they have no concept of a supply train. They have no idea just how much work it takes to support a frontline army, they consider tanks "iron chariots" and probably assume the horses are either hidden inside or they move by magic. Once they start getting their asses kicked they do try to strike out at humans manufacturing capabilities, but sadly it's too little too late by that point.
•step1. start forest fire near city/town step2. watch puny humans struggle to put out the fire step3. raid the ungaurded and evacuating towns or slaughter the helpless fleeing humans
◦There isn't going to work for a very simple reason. Baldricks don't understand the concept of "total war" they're horrible blood thirsty butchers, but they don't understand the idea of total war before we teach it to them, and even then it takes them a while to learn. Also getting a Baldrick from Hell to Earth becomes progressively more and more difficult for the Baldricks to pull off, and they're limited in where they can arrive to where they can find a human Nephilliam who is foolish enough not to be wearing their tin foil hat. In short while I'll admit the idea is a practical one, the Baldricks don't realize that you can destroy an army/enemy any way other than directly attacking that army.
◦They understand how to kill humans though a quick disembowelment and head crush but where's the fun in that why not slowly roast them removing the limbs one by one watch them choke on their screams which way would demons choose get it done quick or take your time and enjoy the destruction. Also it seems this is the only thing they've had to look forward to in their long miserable lives in hell wouldn't they want it to go off without a hitch constant drills and intel reports cuz the only other option is fight each other which is the option they took.
◦You still fail to grasp that the Baldricks don't consider starting forest fires an effective tactic. It would be, but they don't realize it. Yes they do enjoy seeing humans cooked alive, but the way you defeate an army is by hitting it with an even bigger, even tougher army, that's what they know, that's what they've been doing to each other, and that's what they try to do to us. It doesn't end well, because we understand total war, while they can't even grasp that we might be fighting not for a particular piece of land, but just because we want to wittle down their numbers through attrition. As vicious as they are, Baldricks fail to grasp that attacking civilians could be anything more than a fun little sport, not a military tactic.
◦Also it wasn't just by chance that Deamons decided to spend most of their time fighting each other. Satan encouraged it to make sure that nobody ganged up on him. Leaving aside the fact that to the Baldricks, training to conquer humanity would be like spending days and nights training marines to stomp on ant hills, you always have to remeber that Satan wanted Hell to run on a basis of Right Hand Versus Left Hand, that way nobody would be able to challenge his rule. After all everybody more or less gets along in Heaven and how did that end up for Yahweh? By having somebody challenge him and splinter off! Satan isn't about to make that mistake again! Of course in the process of not making "that" mistake, he makes several others, but that's just the way life works.
•They also can't exactly manipulate human's to fight each other because Yahweh had to go and shoot his big mouth off about how they were coming to take our souls so even when some nations might not be willing to fight on the front lines, they realize that there's nothing to truly be gained by making a deal with the Baldricks and just sit the war out.
•yeah announcing that the demons are coming smart move, instead of quietly removing all the religous people and giving them what they deserve then when the rest of the world is confused as to why so many people are missing begin the attack, when they ask why no warning hand them the bible.
◦Hey, it fits the character of Yahweh in this story, he doesn't just want to damn us for hell he wants us to know why he's doing it. He's a huge jackass, but what do you expect of a guy who thinks he runs everything? Yahweh is an addict to attention and praise, so when he sees humans getting tired of him, he decides that not only will he kill us all, but he wants us to be thinking of how we "wronged him" and "brought this upon ourselves" as we die. It was not a good tactical/strategic move, but hey, Yahweh was only carrying about getting attention at that point in time.
◦"Quietly removing the religious people"? I'm sorry, how is teleporting hundreds of millions of people to Heaven or Hell though big black portals operated by giant demons or angels in any way "quiet?"
•Also did I not just spend several posts talking about why they don't know all these things? They've got a bronze age view of the world because that's how far their tech has advanced, it can't go any further because of political and environmental reasons, and they couldn't take the time to do detailed research on Earth before they launched their attack because if they lolly gagged to do a proper double checking of their numbers then God would declare war on them for not doing their appointed job.
◦Yeah but in the story high school massacres turned out to be because of demonic possesion(read the critisicm thread) where a demon possesed human walked down concrete halls unloading a shotgun into humans and the demon possesor decided not to relay the info of a gun to satan if for nothing else than just to kiss up to him and be favored. And how long is lolly gagging for a long lived race like them if 200 years is nothing to them then what's a good 10 years of waiting it should seem like a week or month to them.
◦Demonic posession of a mind does not imply perfect understanding of the mind they are posession. The Baldrick basically told the person "go kill as many people as you can" and they did and the Baldrick watched them kill people. But a Baldrick woudln't understand what a shotgun is, nor would they consider it a threat (as a shotgun loaded with bird shot ins't really a threat) not to mention the Baldricks deffiently never saw what humanity could really do (tanks) until it was too late. As for why they didn't report it to Satan, do you want to be the guy who tells the boss "hey sir your wrong I think they might have some kind of weird magic that just might be able to hurt us now if they did X, Y, and Z with it?" Because you'd just get laughed in your face, squashed and eaten, for daring to believe that humanity is capable of fighting back against Baldricks.
◦As for how long is Lolly gagging, when Yahweh says he wants something done NOW he means NOW as in right NOW time doesn't pass any quicker for Baldricks or Angels even though they live very long, and he knows how quickly Satan can move, he expects Hell to start invading at most a month after he tells them to move. Yes it's not exactly a sane or rational demand, but Yahweh is insane with power, so Satan decided that it would be easier to go stomp all over some pathetic beings who he's never had trouble with before rather than go another round with his well established arch enemy, which makes perfect sense. It'd be like during the cold war if the USA said "Hey USSR, unless you invade Madagascar, then come hell or high water its war!" That's not a perfect analogy, but encapsulates my point quite nicely.
•Also you have to be out of your flipping mind to think the earth humans would think the dead humans were "zombies" because once we have kitten we have contact with the other side and we quickly come to understand how human beings are trapped in hell via talking to them. That's what humanity does in this story and in real life, when we find something new we examine, test, and understand it. At the very worst they would consider the dead humans just that, dead humans who have been forced to fight for the Baldricks.
•I meant at the very start of the war they when they know next to nothing about demons considering the people left behind weren't on the up and up of demon and christian mythology so why not think there could be a human looking demon.
◦Nope wouldn't work. If you'd READ THE STORY you'd know the start of the war happen in Iraq. Also, when "dead" humans are taken out of Hell or Heaven and returned to Earth they start to "leak" "spiritual energy" or whatever you care to call it and can last only about an hour at most. Any army of the dead the Baldricks brought to them in the opening salvo of the battle would be nothing but corpses well before they ever reached the human lines.
◦could be a good distraction "humans? what the hell? and now they're dead...wonder what that was fo-HOLY **** THEY"RE RIGHT BEHIND US!!"
◦No, because in Iraq the US army has the Global Hawk looking out for them 24/7 any sort of mass movement or portal creation would obviously be sighted straight away. Also the Baldricks had no reason at all at the start of the war to think they would need humans. Give me an argument why they think they would need humans at the start of the war or get off this topic.
•The problem with using the dead humans as a fighting force are many and sundry. But here is the big one, if the humans were going to fire, they would not do it with small arms. They would do it with tanks, machine guns, and those .50 rifle rounds the likes of which they started making standard issue to fight the Baldricks with. They would get wiped out just as easily as the Baldricks do, if not even easier.
•great idea though let the humans use their artillery and .50 cals on their own predeccessor while the demons attack from the rear, then tell the humans in hell that the earths humans decimated the hell humans without a second thought bring back the remaiins of some hell human for good measure.
◦First of you use the phrase "attack from the rear" as if its an easy thing to do. Baldricks have harpies, we have jets, they have a bronze age mindset, we have a modern total war one, guess which side knows more about the way the other side is position their troops? We also are a much more mobile army then they are, so you tell me how you outflank an army which is more mobile, and better informed then yours is....
◦portal in directly behind them but nevermind they suck with portals what with coming in a good 10+ kilometers away from the enemy and charging.
◦Once humanity is in Hell portalling is behind them, or in any relation to them is no longer an option, you can only portal between worlds not from one side of a world to another. Once humanity has taken the fight to Hell the Baldricks have lost their main edge in manueverability. Also Satan flips a **** when he finds out humanitys is knocking on his door and demands the ones in hell be wipped out before any more serrious military attacks on Earth are launched, which isn't that smart an idea, but its the kind of thing a dictator with his back to the wall would do, look at the way Hitler threw away his reserves in the Ardens...
◦Secondly, yeah, I'll give you that a zerg rush of dead humans might be able to soak up some ammo, I'll give you that, if the Baldricks could effectively organize a dead human fighting force, which of course they couldn't for the reasons I describe bellow. Though they can be neatly summed up by the fact that by the time the Baldricks realize they're going to get their butts kicked by humanity, we've already effectively broken their back at the Phlegethon river, and humanity is Blitzkrieging its way towards their capital, thus the time constraints involved in this idea make it impossible to have pulled off...
•The second big problem is once again, you have yet to explain how the Baldricks impose their will over the dead humans once they've been released in battle. If they turn on their masters those Baldricks will be too busy fighting for their lives to properly restrain them so at the very least they'll only end up getting a quick death, at best they might win and survive, either way you get to go out while spitting in the eye of the one who has wronged you. Baldricks do like to make the humans fight each other, but you've yet to give me a good reason why they'd be able to create and effective fighting force made out of dead humans.
•Tell them god(yahweh) said if you fight for us you can go to heaven than paint a pretty picture of what it's like (fluffy pillows, women, food, family) Their demons it's in their nature to tempt.
◦Wouldn't work all that well, even if Baldricks could stoop to the idea that they needed humans to help them win the war, something that they'd embrace about as willingly as the South During the civil war thinking that they'd need armed blacks to help them beat the North (yes it happened, but it was a bitter pill to swallow and at first they could only be musicians) so the one year given the Baldricks during the curb stomp war just isn't enough time for them to rethink how they treat humans. After that you have the issue of how loyal are those humans going to be when they get the following phrase blasted to them by semaphore before the battle (and dead humans have the gift of tongues so they can understand any language) "Fellow sons of Adam and Daughters of Eve, ask yourself what are you doing here? More importantly, ask yourself, what are we doing here? We your fellow men have penitrated the very heart of Satan's domain with the express desire to free you from your eternal torment. Day by day his infernal armies are being ground to mush beneath the wheels of human might and progress! His own soldiers are now so cowardly that they realize that the only thing which can beat a human, is another human! Will you listen to the lies of those who have tortured you for years on end now only to promise you kindness and better treatment when they find themselves at your wits end, or will you stand with us? Stand with your brothers and sisters who are hear to raze hell! Ask yourselves if we were not winning the war wouldn't this battle be fought before our homes and fortresses? It is not! It is being fought in the very depths of the infernal realm which our mighty armies are inch by inch, taking ownership of! Will you stand by you're slaver masters for fear of what they might do to you, or will you reach out to your brothers and sisters and cease hope for a better world!" Yeah, seriously a bunch of empty promises from the people who have tormented you day in day out is going to seem more trustworthy than the words of your fellow human beings who tell you they're fighting for your freedom. There would be no effective way for the earth humans not to know that the Baldricks were gathering dead humans near the battlefield before hand due to their greater intel, and then its just a mater of a little propaganda mixed in with a few warning shots to show the undead humans why the Baldricks are so blissful delight afraid of us. Still think they'd be willing to zerg rush the living humans after that?
◦Well the humans in hell are their for a reason rapists, pedophiles, murderers, traitors, embezzelers, pirates. They would remember the humans who put them to death and the promise of the things they want the most would be enticing, sure they were tortured for a long ass time but their minds are mostly sound and they're in the best shape of their lives with the power to heal themselves. Of course these people were probably crazy to begin with and have all sorts of complexes, that the daemons could take advantage of. search their mind find what they want most and promise it to them have them sign a contract and every thing they had more than enough time. Sadly these demons didn't think that way.
◦They had "time" but they didn't have a desire. Deamons thought "humans are insignificant bugs, we'll crush them like ants" then things went wrong and they thought "humans are dangerous enemies, but they only fought a small portion of our total strength, we'll bring them to heal when we show them our full might!" Then they thought "ohh f***ing ****!" And it wasn't tilll that third state of mind when they'd consider using an army of dead humans. Saddly by that point they had no time left to gather together and army of dead soliders. Does that make it clear why deamons never ended up pitting humans against human in battle?
◦◦Well the humans in hell are their for a reason rapists, pedophiles, murderers, traitors, embezzelers, pirates. .....okay, seriously, dude, stop talking. Read the story. If you'd read the story, you would know that in TSW, Yahweh has condemned all of humanity since about 1000 AD to Hell. Blanket damnation for all mankind, period. There's a reason the humans are pissed. 99% of your questions would have been answered if you'd read the damn story.
◦Why would he do that? Then wait another thousand years before finishing the rest of the humanity?
◦Because there's a difference between "None of you at the moment are worthy of worshiping me but who knows maybe they'll grow out of their rebllious teen phase" and "You know what f*** you, I'm going to destroy your entire race and start from scratch!"
•IT JUST BUGS ME that in the time it would take me to read all of the above questions made by someone who didn't read the story and all the subsequent explanations, I could have probably read the god damn book three times.
◦To be honest, I think he's either trolling or relaying comments from other equally moronic people. I get the feel he's been sent here as a champion of some group or another (who also have not read the story) and he's just relaying their comments.
•Abigor knew bill clinton is a horn dog but not that we have missles and other awesome weapons and a succubus's emp is strong enough to trick the human brain but not to mess with a security camera? A herald can hear and smell a jet engine from 15 miles away but a whole gaggle of baldricks fail to notice two rockets screaming towards them. huh odd funny one liner though.
◦You Fail Physics Forever. The F-18s are making their run in at circa Mach 1.3. The AIM-120s are coming in at Mach 4.5+ (exact number is classified). There's nothing to hear. The missiles and aircraft arrive before their sound does. The Greater Harpy Heralds can see the aircraft but they can't hear them. The mind control system by used by daemons works by projecting thought patterns into a human brain. teh human brain has to be there to be projected into. Security cameras don't have brains so they can't have thought patterns projected into them. READ THE STORY
◦It's a lot easier to understand the message of "this guy likes to have sex" than to explain what Americas armed forces are capable of to someone with a bronzed age point of view. They lack the proper mental schema to figure out the things they're learning because they're stuck in the bronze age.
◦It's not how easy the info is to understand it's how did he attain it? and why it was more important info than human defense capabilities. were the demons watching CNN in the nineties?
Sucubi have reasonable amounts of information on Earth, like the capitals and their locations, sadly being what they are they're more prone to carring about information involving sex than the military....
so succubi are like daemon spys? using their feminine beauty to get info from like say politicians, soldiers, and officers which is what female spys are usually used for.
That's exactly what they're used for. Saddly Sucubi are also looked down on by other deamons because compared to regular baldricks they make piss poor frontline fighters. Its not the most efficient of systems when you're predisposed to spit on the people who keep you informed, but Hell has yet to reach the phase of warfare where really good intel really matters.
◦Read further into the story you're still not getting how Sucubus entanglement works. They don't generate EMP, they mess with the chemistry/electronic nerve pulses in your brain to make you see what they want you to see, regardless of if it is a beutiful woman, or nothing at all. Security cameras have no brians, so Sucbui can't stop themselves from being seen as they really are through them.
◦Also what makes you so sure that the Baldrick didn't hear the sound of the rocket? Quotes or it didn't happen!
◦never mind it was a stealth plane.
No, it isn't. The F-18E is not a stealth aircraft. And, again, You Fail Physics Forever. The F-18s are making their run in at circa Mach 1.3. The AIM-120s are coming in at Mach 4.5+ (exact number is classified). There's nothing to hear. The missiles and aircraft arrive before their sound does. The Greater Harpy Heralds can see the aircraft but they can't hear them.
I was reffering to the predator that sent two rockets straight at the stand in hell that just saw abigor's legion of demons depart for our world.
READ THE STORY CLOSER! "The demons who had watched the army leave never saw the two missiles streaking through the red murk towards them, or, if they did, they never realized the significance of what they were seeing." Just from a 10 second trip to Wikipedia you can confirm that Predator Drones fire missles which have a top speed of Mach 1.3, so once again there wouldn't be anything to "hear" until after they arrive.
◦The different types of Baldricks have different bodies and physical abilities. It is not a stretch that the flying type has the best hearing/smell/vision because they need it. We don't know their origin yet, but if they evolved naturally they would need their senses for hunting from up in the air. If they were designed, those senses would be useful in their roles as scouts.
okay humanitiy is has been damned for the last 1000 years (says a poster above me) then 1000 years later they announce satan is coming to claim the rest of the humans now why is that?
See my above answer, around 1000 AD Yahweh decided "You know what, these mortals aren't worshiping me sufficently, I'm gonna start sending them all to Hell that'll learn em!" Then he goes back to listening to people chant his praises, and next time he bothers for a personal look he is EVEN MORE pissed off at what he finds, so he decides that it's time to kill off all of humanity (or at least have the Baldricks do it) and start again with the next hopefully more pliant servent race which would end up evolving on Earth if we were all killed off.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:01 pm 
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Will you be doing a third story like this


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:15 pm 
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dmbell502 wrote:
Will you be doing a third story like this


I was planning to; the TSW was always intended as a trilogy but that's very unlikely to happen now.

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 Post subject: Damn you Slade
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:03 pm 
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what the hell do you mean there may not be a final third part to the trilogy?
Start at once.

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 Post subject: Re: Damn you Slade
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:41 am 
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DocMartyn wrote:
what the hell do you mean there may not be a final third part to the trilogy?
Start at once.


When the first two got torrented the ability to publish them in dead tree form went away (I don't pretend to fully understand why, but this is a perfect example of why copyright infringement does effect the author). As a result the third part has very limited commercial potential if the first two can't be printed.

The way I understand it is that because The Big One, Anvil of Necessity, The Great Game, Winter Warriors, Crusade, and Ride of the Valkyries were already published in dead tree form, the damage was somewhat less.

I myself have been using the fact that TSW will not be published in dead tree form as evidence that yes, violating IP law does effect the content creator.

The way I also understand it is that if I make a PDF of the text that was published online, and use it for personal consumption that's ok, but I can't share it with anyone (not that I have done so).

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 Post subject: Re: Damn you Slade
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:02 pm 
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TimothyC wrote:
The way I also understand it is that if I make a PDF of the text that was published online, and use it for personal consumption that's ok, but I can't share it with anyone (not that I have done so).


I believe that is correct. in any event, it is a de minimis infringement. It also follows the Law of Internet Content: "Stuff on the Internet is ephemeral. If you want it, steal it before it's gone."

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:15 pm 
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I´d hate if the 3rd part wouldn´t happen, 1 and 2 were a great read.

Thanks a lot pirates, I hope that the criminal charges discussed on SDN happen and you rot in some US or Ukrainian jail till Armageddon.

I just checked the torrents and if that´s any consolation they are and have been as dead as a doornail for months.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:07 am 
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Forgive my ignorance but I don't think I quite understand. Someone used Stuart's work to make a torrent and because of this he now can't publish it as a book? How is that possible? It's his work.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:22 am 
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Nick Sumner wrote:
Forgive my ignorance but I don't think I quite understand. Someone used Stuart's work to make a torrent and because of this he now can't publish it as a book? How is that possible? It's his work.


It is indeed mine but to get it published as anything other than a vanity work requires a publisher and now it's been distributed by torrent, no publisher will touch it.

You see, the current assumption is that posting on the internet = free publicity. Torrents are mass distribution and are therefore publishing. So, the little piece of **** who posted the torrents stole my work and destroyed any chance of publishing the books. With no hope of getting any financial return for the work invested in them, I'm not prepared to undertake such work. So, TSW is completely and finally dead as far as printed paper or future additions to the saga are concerned.

This is a very clear, explicit example of how piracy destroys creativity.

The good news is that I'll be concentrating on TBO in future.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:03 pm 
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That must be extremely vexing. Is there a chance of catching the culprit and extracting a measure of satisfaction from them? Perhaps General Supatra could help? She seems to have a global reach and a way with persuasion...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:59 pm 
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Nick Sumner wrote:
That must be extremely vexing. Is there a chance of catching the culprit and extracting a measure of satisfaction from them? Perhaps General Supatra could help? She seems to have a global reach and a way with persuasion...


Oh, I know who the little bastard is; I have his real name and address. Unfortunately, he lives in the Ukraine and we can't get at him. However, the moment he leaves the Ukraine and sets foot in one of certain countries with which the USA has bilateral agreements, he's busted and will go down for five years. I'll get $250,000 out of it, in theory at least.

In reality, he doesn't have any money so the whole of TSW and all the work put into it is a complete write-off.

Sadly you over-estimate Suphi's reach. Even in Thailand she has no more pull than any other Army officer of her rank. That means she can get things done there if she has good reason to but she is answerable for her actions and abuse of power would get her into trouble PDQ. Having said that if the little **** turns up in Thailand, he will be arrested on an FBI warrant.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:04 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:04 pm 
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Out of interest, Stu, how did you find out about the torrent thing? I don't want to discover that TLW has been stolen if I ever decide to go down the dead tree route.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:14 pm 
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JNiemczyk1 wrote:
Out of interest, Stu, how did you find out about the torrent thing? I don't want to discover that TLW has been stolen if I ever decide to go down the dead tree route.


You can easily check for yourself:

simply use the following google Syntax: "The Last War" +ebook
=> No piracy so far.

If I were you I would publish the chapters as DRMed and passworded PDFs on here so noone can simply copy and paste them.

Also I´d keep the forum from the google and archive.org index via robots.txt and restrict access to TLW to members.

Doesnt protect the content 100%, sure, but it adds hurdles.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:08 pm 
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moe wrote:
JNiemczyk1 wrote:
Out of interest, Stu, how did you find out about the torrent thing? I don't want to discover that TLW has been stolen if I ever decide to go down the dead tree route.


You can easily check for yourself:

simply use the following google Syntax: "The Last War" +ebook
=> No piracy so far.

If I were you I would publish the chapters as DRMed and passworded PDFs on here so noone can simply copy and paste them.

Also I´d keep the forum from the google and archive.org index via robots.txt and restrict access to TLW to members.

Doesnt protect the content 100%, sure, but it adds hurdles.

Hey, some of us have computers who choke on PDFs. :P

I'm pretty sure the TLW forum has the same protection as the TBO one, i.e., members only status.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:37 am 
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The Bushranger wrote:
Hey, some of us have computers who choke on PDFs. :P

I'm pretty sure the TLW forum has the same protection as the TBO one, i.e., members only status.



Nop, it´s open to the public.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:59 am 
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Admiral_Slade wrote:
Sadly you over-estimate Suphi's reach. Even in Thailand she has no more pull than any other Army officer of her rank. That means she can get things done there if she has good reason to but she is answerable for her actions and abuse of power would get her into trouble PDQ. Having said that if the little *** turns up in Thailand, he will be arrested on an FBI warrant.


I didn't mean to imply that the general would do anything untoward.

I am sorry to hear all this but may I just say I think you should re-consider not publishing through a medium such as Lulu. I realise you had higher hopes for the story and Lulu can't give you the marketing clout you would want to bring the story to a really wide audience but it would be in print at minimal cost, people would buy it and the satisfactions of an author go beyond money.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:16 am 
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I´d simply put his data on the web.
It´s up to people what they do with it afterwards.

I just read this: http://www.azarask.in/blog/post/protecting-email-with-css/

Could possibly be helpful here also.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:39 pm 
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For what it's worth, if I ever win the lottery I'm sending Stuart a check for $10k to write the third book. Even if its never published, I'll read it.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:50 am 
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Chewbacca wrote:
For what it's worth, if I ever win the lottery I'm sending Stuart a check for $10k to write the third book. Even if its never published, I'll read it.


I´d dime in also if there was any chance of seeing the TSW triology completed.

Sadly i guess even if all of us who enjoyed TSW would paypal ~60$ (which is what I´d have invested in the paperbacks) it wouldn´t reach the amount he could have cashed from a dead tree publication.


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